E106 – Employee Experience and Choice (w Daan Van Rossum)

and James. today we are talking to guest darn Van Rossum, and we are talking all about

employees experience, and specifically around choice and flexibility in people's work experience. Yeah, that's right.

We're looking forward to a conversation with explorers first, and also maybe touch us a little bit on his experience in Vietnam. He's our first guest who is working in Vietnam. So that's exciting. So let's get into the conversation. Okay, so welcome to the main section of today's podcast. We're joined today by Dan Van rosem, who's actually calling in from Ho Chi Minh in Vietnam, which is excellent. And today we're going to be speaking about the experiences that we have in work, and we'll be talking about what employees want those experiences to be like now and going to the future, and to some extent, what organizations are considering those experiences to be going to the future, we'll be specifically looking a little bit of a role of choice and personalization in this. And I think we'll touch a little bit on Vietnam, because that's where Dan's calling in from, which is super exciting. So before we get into the main conversation, would you be able to introduce yourself to the audience and say a little bit more about yourself and your back? Bit more about yourself

and your background? Yeah, sure. And thanks for having me on James and Jane. It's really an honor as a listener to be on the podcast. So yes, my name is Dan. That's a Dutch name. I'm originally from Amsterdam, but I'm now living in in Vietnam, in Ho Chi Minh City, as you mentioned. And here I am the chief experience officer for a workplace experience provider. So we're basically supporting companies over 200 here in Vietnam to run their offices, their workplaces, and everything that comes with it. That's

pretty cool. And I mean, I've looked a little bit your background and your history, and you've moved around a lot, which is great. And I think speaking to somebody in Vietnam is fantastic. So I'm looking forward to learning a little bit more about what you see out there and what work experiences are like out there. But let's start, I guess, with a really kind of basic question. When we're talking about work experience or employee experience, what is it that we mean? What are the sort of factors that contribute to this?

Yeah, so there's a lot of different definitions about employee experience out there. Probably my favorite one, and it's sort of a cheaty one, is that an employee experience is really the total sum of everything that an employee experiences in relationship to their job. So like I said, it's a bit of a cheating one, but I do think that when, when, when, when we're talking about employee experience, that really does sort of sum it up when we say that everything that they experience when they're interacting with a company, when they're working in a company, all those things together, really is the employee experience. And I think when we talk about workplace experience, which is kind of the product that we sell, we kind of look at that from the employer side and we say, well, what are all the things that you need to offer as an employer to attract and engage and retain employees,

right? That makes sense. So, so I guess when we go to work or engage in work, we spend a certain amount of time with other people, doing specific tasks in certain ways, with certain tools, and all those factors together shape of a sort of systemically what our experiences and how we how we feel about that type of experience when, when you're thinking about these sort of working experiences, or employee experience, or workplace experience, do you find that people want similar things, or does it vary? I mean, you know you're you've worked in the US, you're from benevolent you're in Vietnam now. Do you find consistency across what people want? Or do you see variation by sector or demographics or geography or things like that. No,

I think there's, there's, there's a huge difference in how it, how it kind of comes to life across different cultures, different geographies. I've really gotten into this field over the past few years. So my specific knowledge is maybe a bit limited to Vietnam. Up until then, I was always on the other side. I was the employee. So upgrade, of course, I kind of like it's a good way to learn it. Learn. And definitely, there's a lot of things that I remember from being an employee that I now put into designing employee experiences. But I think what I see here in Vietnam is a completely different, I think, culture than, for example, when I was working in Europe or in the US, it's a much more collective kind of culture. There's less individualistic behavior. It's more about the total collective and there's a couple of other things that are really interesting about Vietnam, especially from this perspective. I think a couple of those things are, for example, the Vietnam is a very young. Market. So we are projected to have over 25% of the total workforce in a few years being born after 1997 so meaning the Gen Z people coming into the workforce. So that obviously changes a lot in terms of, you know, what is it like to work in an office when you have such a big part of the population being young, and especially in Vietnam, where this is maybe only the second generation that has sort of done continued education. So these are really the first people that are coming into the workforce that have not just learned from doing in their job. They're educated. They're coming in. They're coming in with different perspective, different maybe expectations as well. So I think that's one thing that's very different about Vietnam, I think the other thing is that it's a highly growing economy. So having worked in a couple of markets, even here in Southeast Asia, for example, the difference between something like Singapore and Vietnam, you really see that working and living in a highly growing economy also really changes the pace for how companies develop and like what is happening in the job market. And this is quite interesting, because even after after COVID, you know, we are actually projected, I just read this yesterday, that we actually will have GDP growth in 2021 whereas most countries either stall or will contract. So so that changes a lot as well. About Yeah, it is quite incredible, actually. So I think that does change a lot, quite, quite sorry, that does change a lot when it comes to, you know, what is the work experience like? And then I think, you know, speaking of COVID, something that we, that we discussed a little bit before the before we started the interview, you know, we only had a very short period where we locked down, and we have been fully open since, since April. So a lot of the times when I'm speaking at kind of international conferences, or when I'm speaking to people in other markets that are doing similar things, you know, we are kind of living in when people talk about the Office of the Future, the workplace of the future. You know, we are living in the post COVID society. We are going to post COVID offices. So again, very interesting to look at Vietnam as sort of a case study for what work could be. Yeah,

that's fascinating. There's some some really interesting things in there. That sort of leading, leading edge of post COVID is really interesting. And I think we might come on to that a little bit more. And when, when you're looking at sort of changes, and you've talked about the first generation to enter into workplace, post education. Have you have you seen a large change in the sort of market constituents and the type of work that people do is it? Is it a shift towards the knowledge economy? Or what kind of things do you see happening in that space?

Yeah, that's actually a really interesting question, and it's super timely, because today was actually the launch day of a research report that we created with a research partner here over the last six months, which specifically looked into Gen Z, and what do they want from work. And again, because Gen Z is such a large part of the population here coming into the workforce, that's something that companies are really looking into. So what does that mean? And so one of the things that came out is that the jobs that they are looking for are actually very different, even compared to millennials. So we contrasted in the study between Gen Z and millennials, and we saw that, you know, and this is probably due to the fact that they grew up with mobile, with social, you know, always were surrounded by content. But basically we saw from the study that the majority of Gen Z is when we asked them, what kind of industry do you want to work in? It was entertainment, media, creative that really came out. And some of the things that millennials typically in Vietnam really kind of go for, which is technology, which is really like a big thing maybe five or 10 years ago, education, retail, all of that is kind of like going to the wayside. So I definitely think that, you know, this younger group coming in is changing what people want from their jobs, and kind of, like, the kind of jobs that are that are in hot demand.

That's really interesting. I know a few people in that sort of Gen Z age bracket, and they're very much in that creative space and interested in that, and not motivated by sort of, you know, consistent careers and those types of things. So it's interesting about play out. I think that's really, really fascinating. Um, when, when you think about, then, what's there at the minute? And these work experiences that we have, be it for Gen z's in your market or in the US, or for millennials or for older generations, when we think about creating good work experiences and helping people have these more, you know, fulfilling experiences at work. Who do you think that benefits? Is it just for the employees? Is it for the organizations? Does it affect society? I mean, who sees the fruit of that creation of good experience?

Yeah, so, so I think that this is something that I say over and over again to, you know, basically everyone I speak to, which is that we have this sort of philosophy that if we make work great, we make life great, right? We spend so much time at work, I'm sure you've seen the calculations, right? Sometimes a bit depressing to think about it. But an average human being may spend 80,000 90,100 1000 hours at work. And probably, you know, some, some of us even more, especially, and podcasters, maybe as well. So consultants, right? So, you know, I think that, you know, because work is such a huge part of our lives. And, you know, today we even had a discussion about work life balance, or work life integration, right? Is work even separate, separable from life, because it's such a big part of it. I do think that if we make the work experience really great, if we make work something for people to, you know, really get a lot from be generative, right, something that they can enjoy rather than endure. Think if we do that, then I think people will come home more energized, right? So I do feel it would affect their family, and maybe, by extension, their community, the society. And of course, it really impacts the companies as well, like we know, and there's just been so many studies on this, you know, companies with strong cultures perform better than companies with weak cultures. We know that more engaged employees, you know, they're more creative, they're more collaborative, they're less likely to leave, right? So it adds to better retention. And again, you know, if at least here, right? So I'll give my perspective from this market. When we talk to companies like this, is the thing they always run into, which is, how do I get the best people? How do I engage them, and how do I retain them? That's really the main pain point, you know, so having something that you can provide to your employees that's a really strong workplace experience, that people feel excited to come to work, you're always going to have, like, good and bad days. But if you can offer something, what that makes people feel excited to come to work and people stay longer? You know, having every single person in your in your company stay two or three months longer, that's already a huge plus. So it helps the person, it helps the company, and I think really by extension, it helps, you know, the family around them, the society, the community around them as well.

Yeah, that's really good. That's that's an area that we're interested in quite a bit. In some of our podcasts and conversations. It's about sort of broader impact beyond the individual. James got some questions for you, but just before we go on to those, I had a question, and I just wanted to pick up on a word that you've used, that I know some other people use, and I just think it might help our listeners to explore it. And that word is generative. So when we talk about, you know, sometimes we talk about conversations or engagement with individuals and different levels of listening and things like that, and people describe generative conversations as some of the most productive and you used it there to describe a work experience. Could you just explain a little bit about that? And then I think Jane will come in

with some questions. Yeah, sure. So I think this is a word that we kind of go back to quite a bit, because it's almost like a filter that we can put on a workplace experience and say, you know, is it either generative or not? And so I think when we talk about that, we really talk about the fact that, you know, when you go to work, is it something that depletes your energy, so you may come in with a really good mood, or, kind of like, a lot of energy and at the end of the day you have nothing left, right? Or is it the opposite? Is it generative? Or, you know, it doesn't really matter how you come in, but you come into work, maybe there's a good vibe in the office. You're connecting with the people. You're doing great work. You're part of something exciting. You're part of something maybe that's bigger than yourself. You feel motivated. And at the end of the day, when you walk away and you go back home, you feel like, wow, I really got something from that. I feel like I've been uplifted, and again, you're always going to have good and bad days. But I do think that the workplace experience is quite tweakable. If that's a if that's a word, I think it's right, influenceable in terms of, what are the kind of like, the levers that you can pull to create a workplace experience that does become generative, that people feel like, you know, overall, when I go to work, it gives me more energy than it takes from me. And I think people who are in maybe more traditional organizations, more traditional jobs, the typical nine to five probably would not say that they walk away from the job at the end of the day with more energy than they came in. And I think that's really sort of, you know, one of our kind of like North Stars, is that something that we could say about coming into the workplace? I want to ask you a little bit now about

choice and the role that choice can play within creating great working experience. James and I have talked a lot about autonomy and control within previous podcasts, and the role it can play in people's motivation. But I guess I wanted to start with, what are the different ways in which employees can have choice in regard to their working experience?

Yeah, so, so basically, the way that we typically break it down, and again, I come from a strategy and design background, so there's a lot of really great frameworks for how to create experiences. And so what we typically look at is the where. So where do I work? Is it at the office? Is it at home? Is it at a third space? How do I work? That could be the tools and devices, maybe the type of room you're sitting in, but also the setting, is it, you know, just by yourself, or is. It in groups. Is it on demand, on schedule? Is it via text or video? So how do I work? Then what you were just talking about, Jane, you know, why do I work? So what is my sort of individual motivation? When do I work? Am I working during office hours? Am I working at night? Am I working on weekends? And then, what is it that I do? Right? So, what is it that, you know, I come into the workplace for my personal development, my professional development. And so when you think about those kind of five buckets of, where, how, why, when, what, right, you start connecting some of those. You could say that, well, someone just because they're working from home doesn't mean that they have to work on a nine to five schedule, right? They could maybe add to the fact that they're working from home, also asynchronous work, where maybe teams work in shifts, or when maybe someone is totally okay to start a little bit later. The motivations could be, could be individual. So those are typically kind of like the buckets that we look at when we're thinking about, How could you let someone really personalize their work experience and in your experience,

thinking of turning our attention to the employers. Now, do you do you find, do you think they have equal opinion about giving choice across those five domains, or if the research says that people have autonomy, and it's going to work? Out for the company, are they relatively agnostic about giving people choice?

Well, this is why it's been so fascinating for me to listen to you guys, because I think you know, you guys are really thought leaders in this space, and you speak to a lot of larger organizations, and you have so much experience in, I think, big organizational and like how they think, if I sort of look at it from our perspective, and we're dealing with a lot of smaller companies that are just kind of like starting to build up, I would say that just from that perspective, employers typically don't think about it at all. I think some of the content that you're talking about that would already be quite enlightened in the market, when people would be talking to me about, oh, how could I give my people more autonomy? And I've seen studies about this, and we should let them, you know, drive more mastery or have more purpose in their job. So I think these are typically things that are not really being talked about here in the markets, and therefore there aren't really any strong preferences, but whenever we find them, and obviously this is the conversation we are trying to drive, whenever we find them, you know, we doubled out and we say, Okay, you're already going into that direction. You know, how could we help you personalize that workplace experience even more? And I do think that the whole COVID situation, even though the impact on Vietnam has been quite mild, with only, I think, 1100 cases since it started in January, even though we border China to the north, so we are closer to the source than than anyone else. But I do think COVID has had kind of an impact in companies now, at least, you know, people were working from home for a little bit. They did have to convert to a little bit more of like flexible working, and that did, in turn, lead to more thinking about, Oh, so if people can work from home maybe once or two days a week, what does that mean for the workplace? And hey, now that we see that people still get stuff done when they're working from home, maybe we can trust them a little bit more. So I do think the conversations start to come up a little bit more now, but definitely it's not a very common conversation yet. It's really interesting. You

say that because obviously, you're in Vietnam, we're in the UK, we're still very much in the grips of of working practices being significantly disrupted. And there is, without question, more material in the media space in the UK at the moment about workplace, remote workplace surveillance from organizations, and you can see HR departments trying to navigate themselves through the demand from managers to want to know more about what's going on, and the evidence that says, hang on, if you give people more space and more flex, you're more able to allow them to be productive. I guess that leads me on to an interesting question, which is, when you do give people choice? What exactly? What can people expect to see?

Yes, I think that the interesting thing is that I remember this from Daniel Pink's book drive. You know that autonomy is one of those key elements that people need. I do think that people have a feeling that when they don't have any control over their destiny, when they don't have choice, when other decide for them, that's typically not a great experience. So in Vietnam, usually, when I run these kind of workshops, I usually put up a screenshot of a food delivery app similar to, let's say, like, Deliveroo in the UK. And I say that, like, imagine that you know even What's your favorite food in the world? If you could only order that food through the app, right? You'll probably delete that app quite quickly. We do want choice. You know, we are very complex human beings. We may have different moods, different preferences throughout the day, or different days in the week, and so I do think it's really important for people. Able to have that feeling that they are in control and that they can choose, and I think that really positively impacts their experience at work. And so that's really where I sort of see the biggest benefit for for employees.

I've got, I've now got so many questions, but can't help it, about food delivery. Well, no, I guess, well, it kind of that was what got me thinking. I guess my first question is, do you think you can have too much choice over your workplace? You know, we hear often about decision fatigue. We hear about significant leaders talking about how they like to minimize the number of choices they have in their day. How do you think that plays out in the workplace? Do you think it's about limiting the choice, or do you think it's about the way it's structured and offered to people?

Yeah, that's super interesting. Because I think that, you know, as you're saying, that there is something obviously, if you have too much choice, and everything becomes this huge chore of having to decide how to do this and how to do that, that's maybe too much. But I think that's also where, you know, I would just go back to the principles of design, which we would use in experience design as well. So if you think about something like ideas double diamond model right where, basically you start with phrasing the problem in the right way, and then you say, Okay, let's ideate like, what are all the ways that we could solve the problem? And then let's go back to what do we actually think we should be chasing after and phrasing the problem and ideating this really can be a collaborative process. So I don't think that, you know, everyone needs to have choice over every single thing. But just starting that conversation with employees and saying, Well, you know, we're thinking about making some changes, or we're seeing that, you know, maybe work should change now that you know we're in this either COVID or post COVID world, but what are the things that you know? What have you picked up over the last year? Like, what is it that you would like to see changed? And so maybe that will help in that process. I do think that you know that idea of, what did you call that choice?

Well, James mentioned earlier to me the tyranny of choice, which I think the tyranny of choice. Yeah, really, he was talking about, like, well, I saw it on Twitter. Someone posted on Twitter this morning, on my timeline. Can someone just recommend me a decent laptop? There seems to be 4 billion. I was like, I feel you, mate,

yeah. Totally, totally Yeah. So when we have too much choices, is definitely, definitely not a good thing either.

And how do you we've kind of, I've picked, we've picked up there on the employers. But I think there's a really interesting question about whose responsibility it is to improve people's working experiences. Is it, is it solely with the employer? Is it solely with the employee? What who, who's meant to do? What for it to work? Do you think?

Yeah, that's interesting. I don't know if that's just the same across markets, but there was actually a study done here earlier this year by a deco where they asked that that specific question. So I can answer it from our markets perspective, very, very specifically. Eight out of 10 I remember, 80% said it's the employers. How do we call that? It's on the employer. So it's on the employer. 80% of the respondents said it's on the employer to change or improve the work experience. There's no sense of, oh, you know, that's also, in part, my job. And I think that's also probably because this is a very young market. Maybe the most established companies have been around for a few decades, but any of the more modern companies, they're all quite new. So you don't have sort of the legacy of people kind of being used to, like coming into a job and having a career and those kind of things. That's all just something from the last like 30 or 40 years. So I do think that when you would ask employees, well, if there are things to be improved, where does that start, or where does that lie? Yes, definitely, they would say, oh, it has to be the employer. It's kind of like a wait and see mentality, a little bit

cool. So that's helpful, I guess, is there, is there any sort of precondition that organizations need to have if they're going to go in and look to improve choice? I mean, do they need to have developed and have a certain level of maturity to have these conversations? Do you think, or do you think it's something that most organizations could start having those conversations without, you know, without having done things like red Dan Pink's drive or other things like that, that sort of opened their eyes to some of these things.

Well, well, that's the, that's the million dollar question. Isn't it good? Good companies do it. Yeah, every company could do it. But are companies ready? Are they willing? I think that's probably more, more the issue. I think, you know, especially in this whole Gen Z conversation, and I can, like, go back to it, because it's, like, very fresh, because we just presented this study. But you know, a lot of the conversations that employers are having with us about that. It's like, oh, I want to understand the technology, or I want to send the platforms. We just go back to the idea that this is about people. And you know, when we're talking about change, you know, we just have to go back to what makes change hard. It's never the the fact that the the research isn't out there. It's never the fact that the tools are. And there to enable it. All of the things that we're talking about, the change in the way we're working now, and the opportunity of hybrid working and working from home more and, you know, personalizing work, all of that was there 10 years ago, probably. And why did it take so long? Just because people were never forced, they were never put into a position where they had to go through the process of trying it out. And I think, you know what Jane just mentioned, too, the companies that had the easiest job in terms of making that transition were the companies that already put more trust in their employees. I saw some of our member companies who already were working on an OKR system, or who are more focused on setting goals and then letting people reach those goals, rather than like a manager looking over their shoulder, what are you doing? Are you on Facebook? Are you working? So those companies seem to be having a much easier time transitioning into this kind of new way of working. So yeah, to the question Is it, is it possible for any company as possible? Is it going to happen? Probably not. You guys speak to more companies. I'm sure. I'm sure you, you, you will run into this all the time. And I'm sure that when you're consulting on bigger companies, you you probably kind of sort of like, tear your hair out every now and then, say, I know exactly what you need to do, but you're just so not receptive to it. Or there's such a organizational barrier towards implementing some of these, these things, it's just never going to happen. Yeah,

and certainly when, when I've spoken to people in large organizations, one of the big blockers has actually been leadership mentality and leadership confidence in letting go and providing autonomy and sort of readiness at that level, right in this response, right? But when, when we've seen this stuff done successfully, one of the one of the comments that we did have at one point on something larger that I worked on a long time ago was that organizations can spend millions on changing it systems, changing platforms, changing infrastructure, all in the effort to improve performance and engagement and get barely any result, but they can spend, you know, a much smaller amount, proportionally on people related change programs that look at culture and behaviors and ways of working, and they can achieve much more benefit through that smaller, incredible they just need to be ready to do it. I mean, that's the thing. It's just, they need to be ready and willing to change and to acknowledge that their currently held beliefs, and this goes back to culture changing itself, to believe, to recognize that their current beliefs may not serve them well, and, yeah, willing to change this.

And also that sense of urgency, right? I think that COVID, basically, you know, all these companies that already knew that, hey, having as a very practical thing, right? Because I have to, like, do very practical things as a very practical thing, companies always knew that having all your documents in the cloud and working on collaborative software is way better. But there were always other priorities. And, you know, like, there's so many companies that came out, sort of like in that, in that period right like around, like March, April, where they said, Wow, these, like, huge trans digital transformation practice that we knew we needed to do, that we always thought that we couldn't do. We just did them in a week. Yeah, we moved everyone to the clouds. Everyone is now on Slack. Everyone is now on Office, 365, or something like that. So, you know, it is that sense of urgency the moment that people cannot come to the office all of a sudden we find a way to work virtually. Yeah, right. And that sense of urgency really isn't there when we're talking about people change programs or mentality, yes, because they don't see the sort of like, the easy and quick and, okay, what do I put in? What do I get out? It's just not there, because there is no, you know, I don't think either a carrot or a stick for them, you know, other than sort of having a belief in I've seen the references, I've read the literature, I'm listening to the very smart consultants. Yes, this is something I should be doing, right? If that urgency isn't there, why would they start? Yeah,

I mean, what if I say, you know, necessity is the mother of creation and stuff like that, right? I mean, you kind of need that drive to do that, yeah, if we, if we sort of bring it down a little bit more and then focus on specific individuals leading teams or managing teams and things like that. If, say, we had somebody who was responsible for leading a smaller organization, who was looking to start, you know, improving experience and to start exploring the introduction of more choice into the organization. What do you think their starting point would be? How do you think they should go about that? Do they need to read more? Can they start speaking to people and listening to people? How do they how do they start to bring this to life in their organizations? Yeah,

that's a really good question, too. And I think that especially in smaller organizations, it's probably a little bit easier to do. And I do always go back to the same principles of design. Is that you know, you start with speaking to your your users, or in this case, your employees, and you're trying to understand, what are the pain points, and how can I then improve them? Not understanding the pain points and jumping directly to ways to improve doesn't really make too much sense, because you may be investing in an area that you know, you know, either from literature or from case studies or from some vendor that comes to you with an idea or a platform that, oh, that could really improve. Yeah, that may be true, and it may not at all be the key driver towards more employee happiness, right? So, you know, in a very ongoing. Way, in a continual way. You know, we're listening to our teams through a platform called Office vibe. You know, I'm sure you've, you've heard about, like, Friday Paul's and couple of couple of those kind of like things. And, you know, these are really simple things. They get one question every Friday, I think, and they answer that and and through that, we get a sort of, like a real time read on, you know, where we're doing really well and where we're not doing so well. And I do think that starting with data that then turns into insights, is really the way to start. So for any manager, especially when you have that sort of ability to do it in a smaller organization, or with it a team in a bigger organization, just to start collecting data about, you know, what would the best day at work look like for you, right? What would be that amazing, generative experience at work, and where are we currently? And what are maybe the biggest things that, if we would address those, you would immediately feel like this is a great place to come to work. And that could be a personal conversation. It could be maybe more quantitative, anonymized data, where people input on a survey or through a platform like that, and then maybe you do, you know, I've seen the numbers now I want to get the insights behind them right, but having that conversation, collecting the data, building a true understanding of what's standing in between the current situation and the 10 out of 10 or the five star experience, that's really the way to go. Yeah. And of

course, those sort of employee engagement, management or tracking tools, those things that you spoken about, are a lot cheaper now. I mean, you can get things with apps on your phone that are much more reasonably priced than they were going back 10 years. And if you can't afford to do you know, a technological solution like that, just even having emails or pulses or or things like that make it really easy for leaders to get that insight. Um, you. You said something there about anonymizing those surveys. One of the problems sometimes that happens here is, or at least that leaders perceive, is that employees or people in their team might not be open and honest with their feedback. What do you think about that? How do you think we could increase the likelihood of hearing the truth from people?

The best practice, as probably you would know as well, is that people will not give feedback. They will definitely not give good feedback or honest feedback if they feel like their feedback is not taken seriously so. And I think again, we're sort of seeing the best practices, and then we're trying to implement it. And we typically try out a lot of things on our team before we roll it out to sort of, like the bigger community. Yeah, and when we started really embracing this and collecting data and trying to build an understanding of, you know, where we're falling short and where we can improve, you know, that's really where, where we saw that if we don't take the feedback seriously, if we don't show them why they're answering that question every Friday, they're going to stop answering those questions. If we don't show them that actions have been taken based on the feedback that they've given, why would they continue to give feedback? And so I think similar for you know, honesty and feedback, why would you be honest if you know that it's going to get either ignored or sort of like, Oh, I think I know who that is, and it's going to get used against you, right? Why would you then be honest in your feedback? So I think that goes back to, you know, building a culture of improvement, of listening, of care, and also that sense of trust, right? That you know, you can, you can truly say what you think, because we're not going to take it personal. Your manager is not going to say, Oh, I don't like hearing that. We are here open. We're listening, we're caring, and we do want to hear that feedback. Yeah, there's

some, some great stuff in there that that sort of personal ownership from a leadership level can be really important in this. And sometimes that's a barrier, but, for so many people who are listening, that's such a huge opportunity as well. I mean, creating those cultures of trust and showing vulnerability and and demonstrating that you listen and that you're supportive and that you're co creating the future of your organization, is really powerful. Um,

yeah, but James, I think that isn't that also the hardest part. I mean, I mean it's so difficult, you know, for myself, for my fellow leaders, for people that I speak to, even if we know that this is the way to go. Do we really feel ready to hear the brutal truth? Because we're all sweating away, you know, 40, 5060, us maybe 7080, hours a week trying to do something great? Do we really want to spend that time on listening what's wrong? But I do think is the only way to get to where we need to be. But it's difficult.

Yeah, yeah, it's simple to say, but personal change is so fundamental to success in this area, but so hard to actually achieve. I mean, that's really one of those things. And quite often, when you speak to people who've gone through a personal change that enables them to lead in a different way in the future, when they look back on where they were, it all seems clear that having made the changes that they've made were obviously the right thing to do, and it was just a matter of time, but in that moment when, like you said, you're under time pressure and you're delivering to see a different way and. To to make that emotional and time and energy investment in something that feels like it's breaking down all the barriers that you have and the things that have helped you get where you are and the things that support you, is hard. It's hard. I mean, it's, it's really hard. Um, if we, if we jump in, I've got kind of one last question that I want to touch on. So we've talked a little bit about leaders and organizations. If somebody's listening, and they're an individual contributor in the workplace, and they're maybe hoping to get a bit more choice and to shape a little bit more personalized, a little bit more their experience in the workplace. What kind of things do you think they could do, or how do you think they could explore making those changes or creating trust with their organization such that they'd be allowed to bring in some personalization.

Yeah, so when I spoke earlier about why do people even want choice, right? It is that sense of I'm in control, and someone is not sort of dictating my destiny for me. And so there are definitely a lot of things that you can do, even if your organization is not engaging in that way. And there are a couple of things that when people onboard in our team, and we actually open that to all of our our members of the member companies, there's a couple of trainings that we do that I think are really key to giving people more control, even if they just do it on their own, even if the organization is not supporting. The first one of those is around purpose, which is that if you know why you're doing what you're doing, if you know sort of your reason for coming to work beyond the salary at the end of the month, that really changes a lot about how you go through your working days, through your weeks, through your months, through maybe years, if you're not a Gen Z year, that is a really big one. So that's actually the first thing that we really talk to people about. Well, why are you here? Yes, you need a job, right? But why are you here? What is it that will really motivate you? And the the thing that you know we see in that is that when people can pinpoint that more we use, for example, something like the ikigai model. You know, where does, sort of what you like to do with what you can get paid for, and what the world needs like? Where does all of that combine? I think you guys have talked about that before as well, right? If you find that, and you can kind of remind yourself, especially in the dark times, especially when you feel stressed out, overwhelmed, and you can, kind of like, go back to your purpose, to the meaning that you found in the job originally. That's a that's a huge one, and that can really be that thread throughout,

yeah, and we are, we certainly like to explore the role of things like intrinsic motivators and personal values within really fits into that definition of individual purpose. Sorry, we're gonna carry on.

Yeah. So basically, the follow up on that is to say, Okay, now that you've kind of set your purpose, we then teach both managers and individual employees the process of job crafting, which you've spoken about. I think you have something coming up about that to go more in depth. Rob Baker, who wrote a really great book about that. But this is the process that we teach actively, which is to say that even even when you found that sort of the thing that keeps you going, the motor, that sense of purpose, that sense of meaning in your job, how do you then make sure that your job stays really great for you? And so the process of job crafting, we've really made it an active process within the team to sit down with team members every two or three months and just write down again. Quite a cathartic process. Write down again, what are all the things that you're doing and what are the things you really enjoy doing, or what are the things that you don't enjoy doing so much? And could we actually reshape your job based on your current understanding of what you like about your job and what you don't like about your job, or maybe because you're working on something and you're collaborating with certain people, you're seeing something another area in the company that you're much more interested in, or is that something that you want to transition into? So I think after setting that sense of purpose and meaning, then going into the job crafting process. I think that's probably one of the best things that I've ever come across in motivating both myself and team members. That can be hugely beneficial. Yeah,

and like you said, we are actually a week today recording a podcast with Rob about his work on job crafting so we go a bit more deep into that, which is, it's exciting. It is, and just a personal reflection on that, on the job crafting, my sense speaking to people is that we're always moving forward, right? So because we change as individuals, whatever job we have, if we if we don't change things and adjust things, we will evolve and change, and the job will no longer be a perfect fit for us. So it feels like versus perpetual job crafting, which can be a pleasure in itself. What do you

think about that so that? So that's what, how we've, how we've implemented it in, into our company, into into how we work with teams. It is a standard practice to sit down every three months and go through that. We whiteboard it. So we just sit down. We have the different buckets. What is What are? All the things that you're doing, and what if that still fits with you? And sometimes that conversation then leads back to actually, now I have a different understanding of what motivates me and what drives me, and then maybe my meaning is changing a bit, or maybe by my ikigai, as we actually, like use that term a lot, so my iki guy has actually changed a bit. Okay, that's totally fair. That's the process, right? That's the that's the journey, especially because almost everyone we work with is under 30. So it is especially in that age, right? It is, it is the process of finding out who you are and what matters to you. So yeah, like every single, every single quarter, we sit down with people and we go through that process. And I think it is one of the ways, again, going back to the larger theme of, you know, what do workplaces need to provide to attract and retain people on the retention side? You know, you can write a job description, but to be honest, you know, when someone comes into a job, that job description probably isn't even as good as it should be to clearly communicate what that person is going to do. And two, three months later, it's completely irrelevant, because that person has found a way to do certain things within that job really well. They're probably not so strong in other elements of that job, right? Unless you're talking about, you know, a call center agent who just have one very singular job. But we're all working these very multi faceted, very complex jobs, and every single person would put their own spin on it, would be really good at certain things and maybe not so good at other things. So that idea of companies having very fixed roles and very fixed sort of job descriptions, it just doesn't make any sense. And then, yeah, absolutely, while you are developing your job is sort of like in the rear view mirror your job description of like, Oh yeah, yeah. That totally made sense six months ago, but it doesn't at all when I applied? Yeah, when I applied, that sounded really exciting. But now, what I've learned about myself, or what I've learned about how this organization really works, or how these other teams that I work with really sort of like operate, doesn't make sense at all. That's why I think, when you look at platforms like gloat, you know, I think Unilever is kind of like experimenting with these more, you know, it's almost like not full holacracy, but the idea of, could you break down people's skills and then use that in different ways and let people you know work on projects, you know, from the UK, for something that's happening in Mexico, because they happen to be really good at that, or be really passionate about something? I think the more we can truly like hyper personalize the job on an ongoing basis, yeah, the better off we'll be. Yeah.

I mean, I love the idea of a sort of fast forming project type job market existences inside organizations where you pick and choose what's best for you. I think that's that's an exciting future. I said, I said I that was my last question. Unfortunately, I've got one more. So what we're talking about here is quite often, you know, leaders, if you're looking to bring these conversations in, need to start speaking about job crafting, need to start speaking about ikigai. Need to start speaking about purpose. And some of those conversations are sometimes uncomfortable for potentially more traditional leaders to open and to start with people. What would you say to people who might be a little bit uncertain about how to start those conversations about the outcomes that you have? I mean, if you start those conversations with people today, respond, well, how do people you know? How does that process feel if you're going through it as a leader who's not traditionally spoken about things like this in the workplace,

it's scary, right? So, like we said before, we know that all these things are out there, and we know that probably we could do our job better, and no matter where we are in life, we can always do better. We can always improve. And, you know, we may hear of certain concepts, like, maybe someone has has been hearing about job crafting or, you know, creating a sense of purpose for for quite a while, and just kind of feels like, well, I don't want to get into that. That's like a whole new thing, and I actually don't know anything about it, and I kind of feel good about being a leader. That is the person that people come to, because I know everything right? Like I'm that person, like high up in the hierarchy, and that's what I want to be known for. I don't want to be known for not knowing something. I don't want to be known for the person says, well, actually, I don't know about that. Let's explore that together. So it really comes back to almost the same question, which is, for that manager or for that leader, what motivates them, like, what drives them? If that's really just about, I kind of want to maintain what I'm doing because, you know, it's a steady income, and it's sort of like I know what to expect and I don't want to develop that much. Yeah, then maybe those conversations are not really relevant to them. Maybe we should not be talking to those kind of managers about those things. But any real, I mean, this is, like, weird to say, but like any real leader or any real manager, aren't you there to, you know, get the most out of your teams. Aren't you there to create fantastic results? Aren't you there to do more than what other people think you're capable of? And I think if that's the case, then you know, you know that you always need to develop. You know that you always need to innovate. And these things are really not as scary. As they look but they're then things that you can easily go into. And I think one of the things that we wrote a white paper earlier this year about what good companies pick up from the COVID crisis in terms of how they re look at their total workplace experience. And we quoted a paper from the World Economic Forum who said, one of the key things that companies should take out of that, out of this whole, you know, how do you say that that companies should take out of this whole thing happening is that companies should take more of a learning attitude. They should not be so fixated on, you know, oh, this is what we're doing, and this is how we're doing it. And anything that's not that is is scary and it's too new and it's too innovative, and it's going to disrupt what we're doing. No, the only way to survive is to constantly adapt and to constantly innovate. So I think that that recommendation from them about companies, I mean, it's very, very true for managers as well. If you're driven by the idea of creating amazing value and creating amazing results with the people that you have working for you or with you, then these are just things that you you just have to, you just have to get started. And it's really not as scary as it seems. Yeah, yeah. Once you get into it, it's okay, right? You know, like, I

go running quite a bit, and I'm not terribly good at it, but I like it. And one of the things that stuck in my head is the phrase, but, you know, the hardest thing about going running is putting your shoes on, right? That's right, yeah, I've never put on my shoes, so I cannot say that's true, but it's a barefoot life in Vietnam, from what I can tell very much.

All right, so I think we're going to wrap up here, really fun subject, some really great stuff in there before we go. Is there any way people can learn more about you and maybe read some other things that you've produced and you write papers or get in touch or anything like that.

Sure, I'm always happy to connect with people. I'm especially always happy to learn from others rather than share what I've been reading or writing. But yeah, I'm definitely happy to connect. I'm usually most active on LinkedIn, so if you search for my name on LinkedIn, probably you'll find me. There's a couple of other people with my name, but look for the one that looks most like a workplace designer, and that's me,

rosem Yeah, so yeah, great. And we'll share links when we publish that. Okay, cool, great. So we'll link people in, and we'll do that. So it's just time for me to say thank you very much. That was excellent, yeah, and thank you for me too.

Thank you so much James and Jane for having me. Like I said, as a listener of a podcast, to then be interviewed on the podcast, it's really a huge honor. So thank you for having me, and I really look forward to listening more, especially this upcoming episode about job crafting. I think it's going to be really great, excellent. Thank you very much. Okay, so you are back in the conversation with James.

Okay, so you were back in the room with Jane and myself. That was our conversation with Dan. All about workplace experience and the role of choice and personalization in there. Jane, did you have any takeaways or points that you wanted to reflect

on? I could listen to him all day. In fact, one of the things that occurred to me was like, it must be quite nice to work for him. Probably the thing for me, that I think is really important is that if you want to try and do these things, it is not easy and it is uncomfortable. And I think that's a really powerful point, because I think sometimes we forget that the soft stuff, as it sometimes gets labeled, is hard and uncomfortable, and so that idea of opening yourself up to getting feedback and stuff like that, I think, is it's important we don't forget that it's hard and that even trying is hard, but it needs to be done if you're going to get past it and to the place where people can openly share with you what would look better? Yeah,

anytime you take off your sort of social armor, particularly in a workplace where we're sort of results oriented, it's hugely difficult. But like you said, I think it's worth it. I just wanted to go back and sort of reiterate one point that vid raised, which, again, is about this word generative, which I think is just a really good way to think about an experience at work and how to create a positive one. And if we can leave our work at the end of the day feeling energized by what we've done, feeling motivated, feeling like we've had an opportunity to achieve and contribute to something the purpose of which we agree with, then we'll be in a good place. And that's restorative for us as individuals, and fulfilling and all those good things and that can go on to positively benefit our co workers, our communities, our families and all of those people in our lives. So yeah, so keep it generative. Sorry. All right, let's leave it there. So I think it's probably just time to say goodbye from me, yeah, and it's goodbye from me.