E105 – Dignity & Work w Jonathan Kaufman

Hello, Mr. James, and this is Jane, and here we are again today with another episode of The World of Work podcast. What are we speaking

about today? Jane, well, today we are talking to Jonathan Kaufman. He is a friend of the podcast from across the water in the US, and he is a contributor to Forbes, and he is also a consultant. And we're going to be talking about the concept of dignity at work, and dignified work, yeah,

that's right. We'll be exploring what it is that we get from our work, what it is that contributes to what we get from our work, and overall, I guess, our relationship with work and what it brings to our lives. So let's get into that conversation. Okay, so welcome to the main section of today's podcast conversation, and it's a topic we're really excited to speak about. So today we're going to be speaking about dignity in the workplace and kind of experiences of work and how those experiences of work can translate into impacts on wider society and our communities and things like that. And we've got a great guest today. We're speaking to Jonathan Kaufman from New York, before we get into that subject in a bit more detail, though, Jonathan, could you introduce yourself to the audience and maybe say a bit more about yourself and your background and the things you're working on at the moment?

Sure. I mean, I think the way that I like to describe myself, or I've often been described as the professional stranger. So my background professionally is as a psychotherapist, anthropologist and generally a social scientist. And from that work, my my sort of evolution began in terms of developing a consulting practice and a licensed psychotherapist and executive coach and consultant. So when I say professional stranger, I really am talking about the idea that I work with individuals, corporations, educational institutions, government, and I come in and solve problems, and that's essentially what I've done now. I think a lot of the work that I've done has always been around sort of the future of work, or the element of work, and specifically in the diversity and inclusion world, but using disability as a lens, and so it's sort of given me a wide swath in terms of the tools that I use, and because of my background as a social scientist, it really provides me this sort of great tool kit that I have to essentially help people find solutions

that's excellent. And I love the breadth of your experience. And I'm not sure we'll get onto it here, but I know you've done some really exciting bits of work as well, so some really interesting stuff in there. Interesting stuff in there that must have been fascinating to be part of. So today, we're really, as I said, Intro focusing on kind of dignity at work, and what that leads to for people and teams and organizations and society and things like that. But I want to start off with some really, really basic points here, when we're speaking about a dignified experience and dignity at work, what exactly is it that we mean, you know, what does dignity at work mean to you?

Well, I mean, if you look at sort of the history of the dignity of work, it really comes from the origins The idea come from Christian ethics. And the notion is that all work is of value, that the idea of being able to hold down a job is important, and it actually has value and meaning, and it provides meaning, both individually and collectively. And it is important to think, when we talk about the idea of work, that it is part of one's life, a big part of one's life, that creates a sense of meaning and value. That's what is, ostensibly, means,

yeah, okay, that's helpful. And you know, as you said, we spend so much of our times at work, right? I mean, I saw a number of the other day, 90,000 hours or something. I've had over a lifetime variation in that, but it's a huge amount of time, and how it affects us is important. So if, if one has dignity in the workplace, and has that dignity and and really sort of feels that one has it, how does that translate into your experience of work and the sort of emotional relationship that you have with your work? Well,

I mean, I. At it in this way I think about work that people bring two resumes to work, one resume which is sort of the tasks and the tools that one has to complete a task or do a specific job. The second resume that people bring to work is their emotional resume, which is their emotional life, and how they deal with the sort of machinations of day to day life. How do people deal with the sort of interpersonal stuff and that that informs how we one perceive work, how we look at work, and how we interact with the people around us, and that make that plays a significant role in one the quality of work that one does within their sort of time frame, but how one engages in the process of work. So there is an emotional component, and then there's a sort of task oriented component as well, and that that is sort of changing the way we look at work. I mean, one of the things is always interesting, because we can sort of look at sort of this generation, you know, millennials, and the idea of work, because that that's constantly changing. So the average time a person is in a job is 18 months. No longer the case, or sort of the traditional model of you go to work and you're there for 3040, years, and you get a gold watch when you retire. That's gone the way of the dodo. You know now, certainly the culture of work is has changed, which then changes the value of work. And in essence, we're sort of going into a sort of new realm, and it's always interesting, I'm always fond of Reid Hoffman, who was one of the co founders in and he wrote a book called The Alliance, and essentially saying that the culture of work is changing completely, And that, rather than being a top down approach, that in essence, you enter a relationship and an alliance which is sort of, which is goes back and forth in terms of that relationship, it's not top down, it's streamlined. So what value do you bring to the table, and what value can they offer? That conversation changes and the power structure changes, which then sort of informs the question about the dignity of work and how people value work, and that, I think, is going to be changing even more so I think one of the Silver Linings as we sort of, I think, and yes, there is, there is light at the end of the tunnel with with the new vaccines, but one of the silver linings of COVID is the fact that we now recognize that this notion of decentralized work, of virtual work which was already existing, which was already in existence at this point. But the fact is that people now have relied on it to work is now going to change. Well, how do we view work, and what is it that we want in terms of just being able to say, Okay, what is important to me, what is important to my family, and the process of how one goes about work in a decentralized world, in a virtual economy,

there's some fascinating stuff in there, and I think that point around the sort of Changing power dynamics between the individual and the organization, or the increased willingness, at least in our interpretation of individuals, to voice their opinions of what they want and what's important to them. And the way that what is important changes every generation and the society evolves is fascinating. And I the sense I get is that that getting dignity from your work is increasingly important, particularly if we look at millennials, and within that cohort of people in the workplace, we see more value on things like individuality, identity, on things like self determination, on authenticity, and all those types of things, which is great and and I guess if we, if we think about people who maybe are in roles where they don't, don't feel that they are dignified, or don't feel that they get some of those things, what does that feel like? What are the impacts of being in a job in which you do not feel that you are entitled to dignity? I guess, well,

I mean, look, I can draw from my own practice. I mean, one of the things I work with, obviously, as a psychotherapist and an executive coach, is working with people who are absolutely flustered by the work that they do, and in many ways, in many cases, unhappy. And so it really impacts. Their ones, not only their sort of social life, but their whole demeanor, their their sort of their behavior, in terms of how they live their life outside of their job. I mean, I think that people begin to sort of meander and look for meaning and are looking for value, and it's almost as if they're in the state of inertia, where they're lost and saying, I'm not feeling good about what myself, I'm not feeling good about my job, which is sort of, and there's, as someone pointed out to me, actually yesterday, because they were unhappy with their career path, they said they're sort of just a general malaise that I feel. I'm going nowhere. I can't I'm rudderless. I can't find my way. And it's finding that way that's so important that I think that people need that meaning, that you know, that sort of value that is important and purpose, yeah, use that idea. Purpose is so critical. So when people don't have purpose in their job, and the job can be mundane, you know, it doesn't have to be something high falutin. It doesn't have to be a white collar job, but, but purpose is so important and value,

yeah, and I'm going to do a little bit of swearing here. I don't know if you've read David graber's pieces on bullshit jobs, and the fact that there are these jobs, and we can have jobs that are high falutin, high paid professional, in some ways socially esteemed, but in some ways sort of socially or individually meaningless at the same time, and those jobs don't give individuals with dignity of true purpose to some extent. Do you feel that there are more sort of propensity of certain job types to be imbued with dignity, or if there are certain fields where you're less likely to have a more dignified experience in work? Or do you think it's a product of culture and individual and those type of factors? I

think it's I think it's the latter. I think it's dependent upon the person, and I think it's dependent upon the culture, yet a the fact that you get a paycheck isn't Yeah, because yeah, out of that it's okay. This is, you know, it's almost this is, this is, you know, the idea of, if you go back to sort of traditional cultures, the idea of Potlatch, in the notion of this, you get something for something is for some for something else. In terms of you are producing something, you are, you are providing something, regardless of whatever it is. You could be a garbage man. You could be a secretary. You are giving of yourself and you are receiving, yeah, being of value. So regardless of the fact, if you like your job, or you're sat, you have some sort of job satisfaction element. There is the element of one. I'm receiving money that I can provide for my family, I can provide for a basic lifestyle, that that, in essence, is the foundation anything after that becomes something more. And we can sort of look at sort of larger existential questions, yeah, foundation of any work is, you know, you provide value, or you do a task and you receive compensation for it. That's the foundation. And

do you sort of equate this, or do you see any parallels with dignity at work and models of perhaps motivation, maybe things like Maslow or anything like that, where you start with the basics and that gives you some dignity, and you work your way up towards those more, yeah. I mean, actual session, absolutely,

you can sort of draw from Abraham Maslow with everything. I mean, it almost is sort of the idea of origin. And I would sort of add Peter Drucker, you know, is that in the notion of management practice, in the idea of saying, okay, he, you know, Drucker wrote a wonderful book. It's sort of a small little book called The management of oneself. And it's, he sort of talks about the idea of of okay, what will the knowledge economy look like? You know, he was sort of thinking about the future and thinking about, Okay, what? What's not important as much about the sort of technological advances, but how one thinks about the world of work and and human beings relationship to work? Yeah, that's going to be sort of the critical piece. And I always think that that's going to be the critical piece going forward. I think that there's a big I mean, we see this now, and particularly in, and I don't want to sort of get too political, but in the sort of, one of the things of populism which has been interested is that there has been this sort of. Great fear of automation, the great fear that you know that industries such as you know, particularly here in the United States, like coal, is going to go things like the sort of the car industry oil, but there's always something else to supersede that, or come later, and it's a question of, okay, well, people have to get used to the fact that the vestiges of the past, that the work product of the past, is going to evolve eventually, the fact that we are now in a sort of more decentralized world than We've had to be because of COVID, for example, is now people are wondering, so what is the world? What's the world of work going to look like? Is there going to be office space? Is that needed? So there are all of these interesting questions that are happening, but the idea of human interaction is so critical to the basic world of work, yeah, but it also, it also evolves in terms of understanding, okay, when we think about the dignity of work and what is of value, the premise is still the same. And what I mean, and this has sort of been bolstered by the idea of, you know, the World Economic both the World Economic Forum and the Business Roundtable, the business round here in the United States, which is an organization of CEOs of Fortune, 500 fortune, 1000 companies. And obviously the World Economic Forum, which is sort of a cross section of business and politics and global issues, they both independently of each other. Within within 2018 and 2019 said, You know what the idea of a definition of a corporation has to change, and we have beyond the idea of The Economist. You know, I went to the University of Chicago, so Milton, okay, yes, was, was considered, I'm actually wearing a University of Chicago switcher, you know, Milton Friedman was considered God there. Yeah, idea of shareholder value, and that was the definition of a corporation. Both organizations said no, that part of the evolution of the of the note of the definition of a corporation is about how we broaden the definition of work. How do we broaden the definition of what a corporation means to one's quality of life and value in terms of both society, both individually, from a diversity and inclusion standpoint, and what value it provides, as far as an evolutionary aspect in terms of work itself. So it's now both of these organizations have fostered upon, you know, companies to say, well, let's actually do an audit of your culture. What? What it what does it mean? And each company is now having to rethink, what are we doing? What are we offering our employees? What are we offering ourselves? What? How do we, almost, in many ways, redefine our vision of what?

Yeah, you know, there's so much in there. And just a couple points I wanted to touch on. Is RS follow. So I guess one of the points you mentioned at the beginning there was our sort of fear of loss of roles, and that that, you know, focus on, say, the coal industry at the minute, and that fear of loss of roles. And if we go back to the start of the 20th century, we have people like Keynes postulating that we would have leisure time, right, which is a corollary to a loss of roles. One way to see it is a negative fear. The other is leisure time because of balance across the world. So I think that's an interesting piece in there. And I think some of that is down to our definition of the purpose of work in itself, which is one of these things that's evolving. And another thing that we talked about, that you touched on, was the ability of humanity to create new sources of work. And I think we have shown throughout the entirety of our history that we are always doing that. And really, if we think about work as a way to perform a function in return for value that or perform a function that generates value. In many ways, we are the only arbiters of what that value is. So we as individuals define that value in ourselves and in doing that, that means that there will always be work, because everybody will have wants or desires or needs that at some point can be met through, through the things that others others do in in my view, so I think that evolution of work and that shifting towards more purpose, area oriented work, which you called up with a business round table and World Economic Forum, is fascinating. And we're, from our perspective, we're heavily interested in organizational impact, organizational responsibility and all those things with dignity. Be in work, and that real human experience, and that, you know that experience of work and lived experience through work that people can generate being one of a core outputs of responsibility and responsible impact. Do you think that, I guess, two things. Do you think there's a relationship between dignity in the workplace and inclusion? And do you think that having dignity in the workplace leads to things like increased health or well being for employees.

Yes. I mean, I think you know, when you sort of look at the issues of diversity and inclusion, the basic premise is, sort of the we have to celebrate difference, because having different perspectives, different points of view, different ways of thinking, essentially, is better for business in the long run. It creates an evolution in terms of how we approach the very processes of business, whether it be from management practice to the development of products and services. So on both sides of the business, it is essential, but in terms of creating a better quality of life, in terms of health and well being, it absolutely does, because one organizationally, they have to, they have to be aware of what is needed in terms of the day to day of focus on work productivity. How do we get the best set of our employees? How do we mine talent? How do we figure out in terms of the basic evolution, in terms of creating new products and services, new revenue streams. And if we don't embrace diversity and inclusion, then we sort of lose out on a competitive advantage that being said, you know, at least in terms of my work, in terms of corporate health and wellness, which is a big part of my professional life these days, one of the most important things is to understand because there is a power dynamic shift in terms of companies in that employees are leaving at a faster rate they want to see, okay? Because one of the questions that employees ask is, what can you do for me? It's not what I can do for you from the sort of corporate side, but what you can do for me, and one of the big elements and sort of draws for companies, is, okay, here's how we could create a quality of life for you. And I go back to the idea that I look that I talked about before. When we come to work, we come with the two resumes. And now people in talent management and HR and DNI diversity and inclusion are thinking, Okay, let's look at that second resume. And what do we have to look in terms of the emotional life of a potential employee, and what draws them in, and what draws them in is creating an ecosystem where health and wellness is such an important part, because we want them to work longer. We want them to be part of a community, not just a workforce. And being part of a community is so much more it's it's so much richer in terms of the fabric of an organizational structure, than saying, Okay, well, you're, you're just part of a company.

And do you think so there's a there's some, been some stuff around the whole wellness at work and well being at work recently that says, you know, on the one hand, yes, it's brilliant, and it's great if you feel really engaged and part of a community, but on the other hand, there are lots of people who would like to have stronger boundaries between their work and their personal life, and would like to, kind of they feel like through things like engagement and tribal working and things like that, that it kind of encroaches into their life. So do you do you see that as a challenge for some people who just want to be able to do the hours they do, stay at work, do it well, and then completely shut down and move away?

Yeah. I mean, look, I think part of the problem is, is that, essentially, now with technology and sort of mobile workforce, is that you, I'm sort of holding my cell phone in my hand, and essentially you could do everything on your cell phone. You're never, you're never away from work, because work essentially goes in your pocket, you know, and that's always the problem. But I do think what is important for anybody, and I talk about this in my in my private practice all the time, is accountability. You know, you have to have agency and autonomy in terms of saying, Okay, I need to be accountable for myself. And when is the point where. You set healthy boundaries? Well, no, a company can't do that for you. In the sense that it is important that you, the individual, speaking, has full autonomy in terms of being able to create healthy boundaries. That, from my vantage point, is so important, and one has to sort of take control of what they need, and they're the only ones really that can when I mean by they, individual employees can be really are the final arbiters in terms of what their needs are. That from my vantage point, is so important, so one of the things that I work on in my own practice is creating healthy boundaries and being able to separate out work life from sort of work life, work life balance essentially, and work life from home life. And one of the key things is not about time management. But, you know, professor at the University of Pennsylvania, Wharton, School of Business, talks about the idea of attention management and rather than time management. And so where does one place their attention on what's that focal point? So it's important to think about it from this standpoint of, how do we focus on what our needs are, and are we getting our needs met? That's essential in terms of health and wellness, and I think that will be useful for everybody.

Yeah, it's interesting. In the UK, we get stuck a little bit between European and US working cultures. And one of the ones that cropped up recently was very much some of the stuff you were talking about, about always on culture. And we kind of got stuck between the some recent moves in France to try and regulate the amount of time that people can work by regulating whether they have to take a cell phone home. They're doing things around turning off servers to force force maximum working times. And I think there's something really interesting about what you say about whose responsibility is it? James and I often talk about like, whose responsibility is it for the well being of your employees? And it we kind of come down on the place well, it's a bit the employee, a bit the organization and a bit the society and the rules that we operate in. And I guess I'm that makes lots of sense for people who are relatively well skilled and in demand. But I'd be really interested to know your thoughts about those we talk sometimes about those left behind. And I'd be really interested to know like for those working in jobs where they often are the, I guess, have the least skills, and therefore are the most easy, or generally, the most easy to recruit and replace, what the role is of of trying to improve their dignity at work

right now, it's a quandary, because it's, it's not something that people who, sort of, when you look at that group of people, that are sort of, I guess, Not, or at least the awareness factor is not there in terms of and the sort of ability to be more, to be replaceable, because the focus is on, okay, I need to keep my job. I need to keep earning a living, because I'm doing this for myself, my family, others. So the priorities set is different. Rather than saying, Okay, this is about quality of life, this is about creating status job satisfaction. That's not something that sort of enters the lexicon as much as others who are sort of in more white collar type jobs. But I do think it is important to talk to those communities about the idea of one the dignity of work coupled with the idea of health and wellness. What does that mean in terms of your quality of life? And while we understand there is a need to work, what does that look like for you? So one, you can continue to produce. But two, the burnout rate is, you know, that has to be certainly checked. And meaning, you know, again, value, you know, there's a surface value, which is, okay, I'm doing this because I have to, I have to provide for my family. I have to provide, you know, sort of continually be the, in many ways, the primary breadwinner, so on and so forth. But how does one begin to. To rethink the world of work, particularly as it's changing. And I think also in many cases, particularly for this community, it's sort of thinking about okay, they see the world of work changing very quickly. And I think there, in many ways, there's always been this sense of underlying fear. So how do you begin to sort of quell that and say, well, let's re evaluate what you need. Because I think doing, as I said before, almost like an audit of doing a needs assessment when you evaluate somebody who's in that echelon of work, it is really important to at least figure out what is their actual need. And then being able to do that, you can begin to say, well, let's create, almost as if, sort of an idea of meaning for you in terms of what work is in your life. From there,

then you can be able to think about at least helping, particularly those individuals or those groups, to say, well, let's almost map it out in sort of a life, in a way where you can say, one, here's the value of work, here's the value of family, here's the value of individual agency. So there's sort of those three elements, and that often doesn't get it's not something that's really talked about a lot, and it's not talked about because the focus is on, okay, I need to do my job, because this is all about earning, you know, money to survive. You know, the survival instinct sort of takes over, rather than breaking it down and saying, Well, wait a minute. Work is a component of my life. It is not the primary component of my life, but it should be a part of a larger component, you know, because there are, there are other pieces that make up my life, and that often doesn't get discussed, yeah,

and I think that's a really important point about that, the idea that there are other parts of life, And I guess I'm quite interested about the idea of crossover, and how, I guess how, when you can have a sense of dignity at work, how that spills over, and how it might sort of impact the other people in your life. Because I think one of the things that we see quite a lot, and we talk about is how, as much as we'd love to sort of put our boundaries so tightly up that work exists in a microcosm or in a little pod, actually, all the people around us experience it too. So what's your thoughts on that and sort of the wider impact on society. James and I often talk about, like, you know, when we can make improvements to work for people's experience, hopefully that'll have a wider impact on our communities. Is that something that you think is particularly true with something like dignity? Yeah, I

absolutely do. And when you sort of go back to the World Economic Forum and the Business Roundtable, that that's one of the focal points of saying the definition of a corporation has an enormous impact on society in general, and also, what's the role of a corporation in society, you know? And so if this is the sort of thought process that's going on with major organizations that represent very large companies to sort of mid sized companies, then this is something we all have to take notice of, and we all have to sort of begin to refocus and reformulate how we think about the nature of social impact. And, you know, look, there's a whole element of companies, you know, which are B Corps, which are focused on, sort of the social impact of of communities and the social impact of society in general. And it is critically important to say the work that you do, because you are at work so often, you know, it's a big part of one's life that isn't just about shareholder value. It isn't just about goods and services. But rather, what is it that we can do? You know, what's fascinating about or, you know, cultures like Silicon Valley, for example. You know, these are companies that stem from the idea that we're here to change the world. The whole ethos is about that disrupt, disrupt, disrupt, right? A toxic phrase.

And the end beyond that is, how do we change the world? How do. We change the world, how do we change the culture in which we live? How do we change our environment in so many different ways? So that idea is being adopted on so many levels. And then, you know, look, there are shows you know, that sort of espouse that. I think you know, there's one show here in the United States called Shark Tank, and it's, I think it's called Dragon, Dragons Den. Yeah, it's Dragons Den here, right

in the UK, it's dragon same idea. So it's the notion of entrepreneurship and the idea of saying, Okay, well, and you sort of and what's interesting about both of those shows, because they're identical, different title, but identical shows it's the idea that it isn't just about the goods and services that you know these investors are sort of coming to invest, but they're investing in the stories. They're investing in the idea that people want to change one their family's lives, individually, the individual entrepreneurs, but also society at large and and then there, you know, what you were seeing is over and over again, companies that, okay, it's about giving back, you know, like shoes, for example. And you could see it sort of, there's a litany of companies like that. So the social value has become more important because it goes back to the definition of, what are we all about, and the larger existential question,

yeah. And fundamentally, we are social beings, and so much of what we do comes back to that social positioning and social purpose. And so it's great that you mentioned B Corporations. We've We've done some podcasts with a few people who are involved in B Corporations. One of them is involved in B labs in the UK, one of our sort of governing bodies. And we're actually, you know, as a company. Jane and I worked together, and we're something in the UK called the Community Interest Company, which isn't a B Corporation, but it's legally structured in such a way that it's essential for us to work towards achieving a specific purpose, and our funds are ring fenced to make sure that we can only do that, and we do that because of our personal quest for purpose and value in what we do, and an ability to try and create more dignity in the work that we do, and more satisfaction for ourselves and to feel part of that wider ability to impact society. So I guess a couple questions, if we move on to some things that individuals or people in organizations can do to maybe shift some of the dignity that they have. We've talked about stuff tangentially as we've gone through, but I guess if somebody was an individual in a job at the moment who wanted to create more dignity in their role themselves, is there anything that they could do?

Well, yeah, I think one of the things that they have to look at is, you know, ask themselves the question, what is it that I want? What are my goals? Because I think it's really important to think about, you know, I always think of Andy Grove, you know, the sort of co founder of Intel, and he came up with this sort of management practice called OKRs. Are objectives and key results, and the notion is that one we have to think about, what are my objectives, and I think it's really important. I don't think people think about it enough. And I actually use the model because the model was really designed for a larger practice, but I've been using it actually now for individuals, and particularly in their workplace. And one, one of the things that I found in the process of doing this exercise is that people have never really sat back and said, Okay, what are my objectives in my work? What you know, it isn't just about the task at hand, but the sort of larger question, so that I feel a sense of satisfaction, that I feel healthy in terms of the work I'm doing, I feel confident in the work I'm doing, and, God forbid, I feel happy in the work I'm doing. And it's important that people begin to think, what are the objectives? And it isn't just about the tasks of the job, but it's about where I am in the arc of my career. And then it's thinking of going beyond those objectives and saying, because the key results is really the question of how, how do I get there? So it's creating a blueprint for oneself, and it's really important for that people begin to think about that. One, they have autonomy. Two, that this practice needs to be part of their daily lives.

Yeah, yeah, that's helpful. And I think a key message for me is that something that you said earlier is that different people are in different places with different needs, so there isn't a right answer. And as you said, for some people, work is part of their lives, and they want the paycheck and to invest their energy outside. But for others, they want purpose through their work. And whatever the answer is, that's okay, it's just making sure that it's the right answer for you, giving you. Circumstances. There's no one size fits all. It does work that way, so we remember that.

And what about if maybe you were leading a small team? So a lot of our listeners lead, you know, smaller teams and organizations. Is there anything that you could do as a leader of a team that would help create more of a dignity experience for the people working for you in an organization, three

words and they're the same words, communicate, communicate, communicate. Okay, if you're not communicating with your team, you sort of lose out. Now, how is that done? I think it's important to begin by, you know, at least getting people together. And you know, in many ways, it's actually a lot easier to do it in social situations, I mean, and in this time, this sort of time of COVID, it's a lot harder, but people are doing sort of zoom happy hours. Yeah, I think that it is important that people interact and connect, because it's also, you know, in many ways, it's for team leaders and doing team trainings. It's sort of beginning by asking a question, sort of putting a question out there, and thinking about what people respond. You know, it isn't about just work. It's more a matter of, how do individuals connect to each other on just a basic social level?

Yeah, that stuff's so powerful. I remember reading Edgar schein's Humble inquiry, and it talks about the importance of going out for dinner before you do anything, right? That kind of things. How do you build those connections and

right? I mean, we are, as you pointed out, we are social beings, and it's so important just to connect on a basic level. And it isn't about work. It's about developing and cultivating relationships. Relationships are at the core of anything. My grandfather owned a business for 55 years. He always used to say, business is about people, and that's all you need to know. If you understand people, you'll do much. You'll be much more successful long term. Sorry,

I was just gonna jump in my my grandfather ran a business he did, like, sort of American drug stores in the 50s and 40s and 50s and 60s and so on. And one of the things he used to say was that, if you didn't know your people well enough to know their kids birthdays and remember their wife's name, then your business was too big. Yeah. And so, same kind of message, right? I mean, it's all about for people,

it is a very different messaging. And, you know, and, and it's so it's it's fascinating that that was such a core, that was at his core, and so important for him to know who his customers were, to know who his sales people were, and to know about their lives, and he had people live, working inside and outside the country, but to understand the idea of people's wants and needs and desires were so important because that would have gave him the ability to grow and to evolve. And I think, for whether you're an individual, small team, a larger company, it's understanding the value of individuals and the value that they provide to your organization and vice versa.

Yeah, and through those connections with them, that, in itself, gives them dignity, that being seen and recognized by you and included in in your relationship as a valid person provides dignity as well. I believe, Yep, absolutely okay. Well, I

think we are running out of time, so I'm going to start to wrap things up. I thought that was full of great content. So thank you. Just before we finish up there, Jonathan, is there any way that people can learn more about you or read some of your work, or maybe even get in touch

Sure? I mean, I have a website, which is www dot Jay Kaufman consulting, and then I write a regular column for Forbes called mindset matters, which is part of their leadership and their diversity and inclusion sections. And it's usually I have it comes out weekly, but it's a regular column because sometimes I write more so that is something that I'm I could sort of continually do, and that seems to be where people know about me most. But you know, my work is I do consulting and I do coaching, and you know, I'm always open to see if my goal is to focus on people's needs and finding better solutions. So that's the goal that's always been, the goal

that sounds great. Okay, well, we will share those details when we put the podcast out, and we will be retweeting some of your mindset matter stuff. I know you tweet about it and write about it on LinkedIn sometimes as well. So we'll be sharing those over coming up as well. So it's just time for me to see to say Thank. You very much. So it's a thank you for me and for me. Thank you very much. I really appreciate this.

Okay, so that was our conversation with Jonathan Kaufman, and you are back in the conversation with Jane and myself. Jane, did you have any points you wanted to reflect on from that conversation, or specific things to call out?

Well, aside from the fact that I need to go and put my head in the fridge, because I feel like we covered so much in so many ways that it's given me a lot to think about. Then I guess the thing that really struck me was just that, well, that that so many times, that conversation, the concept that we were talking about, overlapped or crossed paths with other things we've talked about, and other theories and sections of Organizational Psychology and Organizational Development. So for example, he was talking, I thought really eloquently, about this idea of people helping people construct purpose out of their work, even if it's potentially lower skilled or lower paid or both. And I just think back to when we've talked about job crafting in the past, and I know we're going to be talking about it again when we think about that idea of crafting psychologically, what that job is, and what it means such that you understand and can connect with the purpose more. And I think for me, that's that's something, there's something really interesting about talking to someone who views, uh, organizations and work differently and through a different lens, like he does through, you know, sort of a different approach, and thinking about trying to unpick how that sort of relates to some of the stuff that We know can help improve people's experience of work. And I guess, really just asking, I guess it makes me ask, is dignity at work? Just well, well planned, appropriately resourced work, where you recognize that it has a purpose?

Yeah, that's a good question. And I think there's some some good reflection in there. I guess one of the things that I'd call out, I'd say, builds a little bit on what you're talking about there. And one of the things that really stood out from that conversation for me is the fact that as humans, we are the Bringers and the determiners of what is valuable in what we do. So when we're thinking about dignity and work and what we get from work, to some extent, we create all these things that define what dignity is for us. And I think that's an extra layer that I'd add to the points that you were speaking about there, about what What dignity is. And for me, that's that sort of social connection, and what we create as value collectively, and what we think is important collectively. And I think that human connection is really important there. I think as well that overall, that humanity is really powerful so that we can improve our dignity by connecting with each others, by having our relationships with others, by being valued and seen by others. And I think that's an important point to bear in mind in all of this. So if there's something that you can do as an individual to help improve dignity at work, it's really seeing people and recognizing them and appreciating them and valuing them as people, and that, I think, is a powerful contributor to dignity in the workplace. So I think that's probably it from us. So I think it's just time to say goodbye from me, and it's goodbye from me.

Hi everyone. This is James. Thank you very much for listening to that podcast, and please do share it and review it if you enjoyed it. And don't forget, you can learn more about our coaching, workshops, courses and development programs on our website, that's www, dot World of work.io, again, www, dot World of work.io, you.