E055: Career Anchors

This is the world of work podcast with James and Jane. Hi

everyone. Just before we get cracking into this week's episode, I wanted to jump on and mention our new sport page. So as some of you may know, we're on a bit of a mission to increase accessibility to good quality management and career training. And if you'd like to support us in this, you can go to www.worldwork.io forward, slash support to learn more. Hello.

This is James, and this is James, and here we are again with another episode of a world of work podcast. What are we doing today? Jen, well,

quite excitingly, today is the first day of 2020, that we are recording. Very exciting. And it's also gonna be the first episode that goes out. So we're not recording with much relaxed. We thought it would be nice. It's New Year. Yeah, lots of people are either starting new jobs or thinking about their own careers and what they might do next is that time of year it is so we thought it'd be really nice to start looking a little bit about the subject of careers. Okay, cool. And so what we're going to do today is, very specifically, we're going to look at something called Career anchors, which is something a concept that has come up with by our favorite researcher. He's definitely up there, yeah, like we do, quite like him, yeah. And He came up with the concept of career anchor, because when he was trying to understand, he did a study on a number of students as they left MIT and where they went, and he was trying to identify why they went to some organizations and why they left. And in doing so, he found that really, rather than what we thought, which was, you know, might be related to personality or to organizational likeness, or that actually there were these things called Career anchors. So we're going to talk a little bit about that, and how people might find them, how they might use them, and what organizations can learn about cool That

sounds exciting. Before we get into that, let's just do a little quick reminder that if people want to get in touch with us, they can connect with us on Twitter, at the WoW podcast. We do a wow mail, which is a newsletter from time to time. You can sign up for that on our website, which is www dot, World of work.io, and we're also on places like Facebook and LinkedIn. So do get in touch with us. All right, should we get into the subject? Yeah.

So before we do just a reminder, we will start with a couple of definitions. We're going to move into talking about the research itself, and then we're going to have a little list of the week, because we love that, some stories from the keyboard, and then some top tips. Perfect. Can't wait. So James, why don't you start us off with a couple of definitions? That

sounds like fun. All right, so what we've done here is we've pulled together two definitions that we think are helpful for. First one is the definition of career. And we've actually found two definitions of career, and they vary a little bit, so it's worth reflecting on them. From columns dictionary, we have a definition of career, which is your career is the part of your life that you spend working. So it's quite broad, but hopefully it's helpful. The next definition we have of career comes from Merriam Webster, and it's a little bit different. There's a little bit more nuance and detail to it, and it's got more assumptions behind it. So their definition of career is a field for or pursuit of consecutive progressive achievement, especially in public, professional or business life. So there's a lot more to that, right? And I think most people think their definitions personally are somewhere between those two. The next definition we've pulled up is for the career anchor, which is what we're speaking about here. And this comes from Edgar Schein. This is from Him speaking online. And what he says is a career anchor is perceived areas of competence, motives and values that you would not give up when faced with a career decision that might not allow you to fulfill it. Your career anchor represents your real self. So that's kind of interesting, and it reflects the fact that career anchors are some of the underlying things that hold you in place as a person, that are important to you in relation to your career. So those are the definitions for this episode. Hopefully they're helpful when we're thinking about careers and career anchors. Jen, do you want to take us into some research? You've done a fair bit of research on this subject for today.

Well, I've stuck to the man himself, predominantly. I've got a few other things in here, but I've stuck to the man himself, predominantly because I feel like that is, you know, while he's still around and talking about it, why wouldn't he be a good place? And I looked at some other critiques of it, but certainly from this point of view, I thought it was really helpful. And what I've done is, I thought the most useful thing we could do is talk through what the eight anchors are, great. A little bit about how you might identify them and how shine talks about being to understand and how they interact, and also a little bit on each of them and how you might go about rewarding recognizing or developing people with different anchors. Okay,

cool. Cool. So it's like exploring the eight anchors that shine has, and then thinking about how we can turn that into something practical in our own roles or somebody else's career. Yeah, and I think

there's two ways of looking at it right? One is for yourself, and the other is you within an organization with other people. And I think it's useful to look at it from both angles, because traditionally, careers tends to be something that's looked at very personally. But actually, I have a firm belief that organizations should be involved in supporting people to forge their way through their own careers, and one of the best ways they can do that is helping them learn a little bit about themselves. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to talk you through each of the eight and explain a little bit about what they what they won't give up. And I think it's really important just to shout out. There's quite a lot of research and lots of material on the internet about career anchors. And the distinction shine makes consistently is career anchors aren't just like the one thing you move forward. They are very specifically something you are not prepared to give up. Yeah? And so he argues you can have multiple anchors, but there is always one overriding thing that trumps everything else. Yeah. It's the most important thing for you, and, yeah, and it's the one thing you won't let go of, or if you do let go of it, it's gonna, it's gonna distinctively affect your quality of life, sure.

And I guess a lot of the people he studied probably moved on from their jobs if they're in a situation where,

well, so that's exactly. So it's really interesting that this is and the study that he did started off with 44 MIT students, and it's then been replicated. Been replicated across industry and sector and different career stages. But what's really interesting is he argues, this is not a piece of theory. This is something that emerged while they were trying to figure something else out. And they were like, This is not this doesn't make sense. Why are these people behaving in what appears to be a random way? Sure. And it turned out they weren't. It turned out there was something else going on, right? So I'm going to talk about the eight anchors, five of them. The first five of them are much more related to career. The three latter ones are a little bit more personal, but they're all equally treated within the work. So the first is general managerial competence, nice, I know. And generally these people, the one thing they won't give up is the opportunity to climb the corporate ladder or the career ladder. And they, quite often, the kind of work that they thrive on is where their responsibility contributes to overall organizational success. So they like contributing to that bigger picture and being a part of that puzzle. The next is technical functional competence, okay? And it's these two that most consistently get talked about as being an issue with an organization. Technical functional competence is the opportunity to apply and develop skills, and they want to do stuff that is technically challenging, right? So if you take away their opportunity to actually be skilled and demonstrate and do those skills, that's when they're going to struggle. Sure. The third is around security and stability, and people traditionally talk about salary and financial security, but actually this is about a far bigger understanding of security. It's about a guarantee of employment being crucial to them and something they're not willing to let go of, and also they want a level of predictable, steady work with minimal uncertainty from and consistently, they are a group that sometimes get mismanaged because they do well, and therefore there is an assumption that they want to progress quickly. Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. The fourth group is those that seek autonomy and independence, and the most important thing to them, the thing they won't let go of is the opportunity to find their own work, right? It's really important to have as much of that as possible, and that will be the thing that drives them out. And also, it's really funny. So the way it's phrased in one of the articles is the type of work they like, clearly delineated, time bound, work, without direct supervision. And I've just met so many people who thrive in that I just want to do their own thing. Yeah, they want to go off and do their own thing. And I used to work with a bunch of sales reps, yeah. And they, I've never met so many people like that. They just want to be given the targets told what to do, allowed the way to do it, any which way, they can be objective, make it happen, and come back with the result. And then the next group is entrepreneurial creativity, and the one thing that they will never give up is the opportunity to create an enterprise or something new. Yeah. Okay, so they like roles that require innovation, thinking, development, and they are different from the autonomous because they they're quite happy to share the work, right? They don't have to do it themselves, but they need freedom, whereas automated independence is much more about own yourself. So traditionally, you find they're much more comfortable with managing teams and setting up businesses and moving on as well from that business. This, then we have the final the three, which is slightly different in the sense that they tend to we tend to find them more about values and personality, and this is service or dedication to a cause, yeah. And the thing they won't give up is work that achieves value, right? So they can do brilliant work, but if it doesn't count for something, yeah, they're struggling, yeah, and the type of stuff they do is influencing organization towards their personal values. So people who try, and I don't want to say, impose, but certainly try and influence organizations to be more reflective, quite often, see that within managers that sit under this group, yes, I'm sure, yeah. Yes, I'm sure. And then we've got pure, what's called Pure challenge, or as I like refer to it, the Shackleton group, yes, the intrepid explorers. And they want to solve the unsolvable, and that's the thing. They won't give up. They need challenge constantly, and they will do the stuff they want to do, the stuff that's highly competitive about solving problems, yeah. And then the final group, and it's a really interesting one, and I think it's highly pertinent today. And this world is lifestyle right now. This is the most commonly misunderstood group. People think lifestyle means people who want to go and live on the beach and work from home, they are in that group, sure, but lifestyle actually means about the stuff outside of work. So quite often they're the people who won't sacrifice work life balance. But really interesting, the example shine uses when he's talking about it, one of them is about where you have two working adults in a household, and that person is not prepared to sacrifice the other person's anchors, great, or they have a shared anchor of balance, of parent giving and stuff like that. And so consistently, they may not share those values because they don't consider them career values or career anchors, but actually, they quite often will leave jobs because someone's threatening their work life balance, or their family time, or their partner's ability to have their anchor interesting. And so yes, lifestyle, absolutely, is also about flexible working and all of those things, but it's really important that it's something more than just lifestyle. And actually, I suspect if he could rename it, he might rename it, possibly. So couple of things about those eight. One, you can have more than one, but there's always one dominant shine argues. There's been studies that have tried to challenge that. And also, if your job doesn't match, you'll probably find your career anchor showing up somewhere else, right? So you might start volunteering, or you might have a hobby that allows you to do those things. Yeah, interesting.

Well, it's a great set of things. Just to recap, I'm just going to run through them all again. So we've got number one, general managerial competence, number two, technical stroke, functional competence. Number three, security and stability. Number four, autonomy and independence. Number five, entrepreneurial creativity. Number six, service or dedication or cause. Number seven, pure challenge and number eight, lifestyle. So those are the buckets that we all kind of fit within, within our career Anchorage. So Edgar Schein thinks, yeah, that's good. Well, he's a good guy. So that's, that's just that,

yeah, absolutely. And then the second two things, just talk about briefly finding your anchors. There is an online test, okay, it costs. There are also other free, similar tests that have been based on that. How accurately they are, I don't know, but I think it is important just to note that shine himself argues that questionnaires don't hold all the answers. Of course, they're an informing piece, and he's quite strong on that. Yeah. He the way he found these was getting people to talk through their career story. So he encourages people to do that as well, yeah, talk through your career story with someone else, and you will notice things. Yeah. And I think that's really important, because I think in the days of searching the internet at 8pm at night, when you're frustrated with your job, you find a questionnaire and you think it's got all the answers, yes, yes, and it might capture just a moment, yes, absolutely. That's good advice. What do

you think I like them?

I think they're interesting, like many things like this, as we go through the list of them, pretty much each one I hear, I'm like, Oh, I've got a bit of that. So trying to refine down to the ones that would really be a specific anchor for me, or to find my dominant anchor, would be an activity of it's probably worth me doing. But I can relate to them, and I can see benefit in what he's done, and I like the fact that the language that he uses around this is around the importance of observation, the importance of stories and the sort of experiments that people have had in their life, more than it is the self reported nature of discovery through surveys. I think that's helpful,

yeah, and I so one of the things that I've done that is not in his book, or maybe it is. I read his activity book. I've only read the book. Maybe it's in his next book.

I play. I don't know if anyone's ever played, like Battle of the Bands or something, yeah. So I will put two up against each other and try and create imaginary situations, sure, like when the Trump when the chips are down, yeah. What would I What would I give up first? Yeah, and I love his phrasing. It's a negative phrase. Thing. And I think negative phrasing as in using No, yeah, not as in negative stance, yeah. But using negative words is a really helpful way of approaching a problem differently, to think about it, yeah. So What won't you give up is just so much more powerful. I think in this particular

Yeah, that pair of comparisons a useful way to go through and yeah, test and work out your primary well. And you can, I think

you can ask yourself much tough questions that way. You know, would I be prepared to sacrifice in the short term, my family's amount of time with me? Yeah, in order to achieve the next step in a managerial career? Yeah? Yeah. Or the in order to achieve an opportunity to a skills based job that I've never done before? Yeah? Interesting. Yeah, good stuff. So

I thought it would also be quickly useful just to touch on how career anchors might affect people's preference for how they are recognized and rewarded and developed in an organization. Because I think the most powerful thing about this is if organizations can understand their people's career anchors, they can actually make sure that they are rewarding and growing them in the right way. Okay, so real Whistle Stop through this. So if your dominant career anchor is general managerial competence, yeah, quickest, easiest way to recognize you is to promote you to a higher level in the organization and to develop people want more responsibility, right? Really straightforward, seem straightforward, yeah, if you are, whereas if you're a technical, functional competence person, if that's your dominant anchor, then you're much more going to be interested in recognition from peers who understand the skills level, right? And we see it all the time, right? In in computer developers, they're not interested in what their managers think. They're interested in what other developers. They don't care what I think, great, let's be honest. No, they're quite right, yes. And actually, the growth opportunities they will be looking for will be things like scope of job and challenge, and also an increased technical requirement, security and stability. Totally different. They want an acknowledgement of their loyalty and performance right they want people to say, I get that you're staying here and that you're working hard. And also, they want promotions at the right time when they are appropriately ready, so nothing disproportionate, not overly accelerated. In other words, expected. Yeah. So for them, everything is about what is expected. What can they assume? Yeah, and what would they expect, normally, to happen? Yeah, entrepreneur and creativity, unsurprisingly, completely different, high visibility, lots of public acknowledgement and new ventures if possible. So if you got a new project, chuck it on. The guys who are entrepreneurial, whereas that other group that are quite similar, the autonomy guys, are much more about awards. Okay, so they might want to get salesperson of the year. So you start to see trends right in people that are doing these kinds of so if you're a regional person who's working very independently, because you're so independent, you may well want something that recognizes you, because other people won't know about it, that makes sense. And also you may want additional freedom. Okay, so that's a really big thing. So as opposed to something new, they may want additional ability to flex their own, more time to scope. Okay,

contrarily, those who are all about dedication to a cause want support from their superiors. So they'll quite often want a project sponsor or champion, someone to recognize what they're doing and talk about it. And they want to be understood in their values, right? And their growth the way they want to develop. They want additional influence. So, remember we talked about they want to be able to impose their values or encourage So, therefore, obviously, they want more influence, right? Bigger platform, exactly. Pure challenge. They're the most likely to be interested in what I would call piece work pay, so paid per individual achievement, okay? But actually, largely for them, it is about additional challenges and being proven to have one, right? It's super competitive, so it could be nothing, but if there's a winner involved, they'd pay to win. Yeah, and

I think lifestyle guys are guys, and girls are probably the ones that the simplest but most easy to stuff up. They want an acknowledgement that their personal needs and requirements are not unusual. They want it to be acknowledged that that's okay, and that's, you know, that they are doing a good thing by balancing their life in a different way, right? So when you reward them quite often, it will be about more flexibility, and some ways, they're very similar to the autonomy guys, right? Yeah, just actually with a completely different thing that's driving it, yeah,

yeah. Well, interesting. That's a great sort of insight into things that you can do to help people with different anchors in your organization cool. So I thought that was some interesting research. I think it's a really interesting topic, and I think there's lessons for all of us as individuals and as leaders of organizations or team leaders and things like that. So what I'd like to do is to run basically onto our list, which is going to be six points, but basically cover some of those lessons. And what. We've pulled together for you is a list of six points based on reflections in relation to the different career anchors that we've discovered or that we've we've discussed, sorry, that we think can help you in decision making within your organizations and things like that. So the first one that I want to touch on, we've called only one way up. And what we're getting at with this is that in many organizations, there's only one way to progress, and that is to move up into management. And you see this causing trouble in many organizations, whereby people who are technical experts and have that technical career anchor can only progress if they step into a general management role and become leaders of others and start to deliver through others, and this can have negative consequences for them, because they stop being able to do what they want. So we need to bear that in mind and try and create progression routes that allow people to stay in their technical roles. Next one we want to touch on, we've called it's a mosh and this is kind of reflecting more on the general managerial competence people. And what was the saying is that really, people might have a general managerial competence anchor, and they want to progress in that direction, but if they don't have the emotional competence needed for general manager responsibilities, they'll get themselves into trouble. So though they might want promotion, if you promote them when they're not ready and they don't have those emotional self management and leadership skills and the ability to make tough or uncomfortable decisions that have negative consequences for themselves and the team. So the third one is road to independence. And what we're saying here is that within organizations where many people who value autonomy and independence, and if you have those people, it could be in your benefit and in their benefit to help try and transition them into a role outside of the organization by giving them peace work or the freedom to take on control and ownership of smaller projects. Next point we want to touch on is something we call secure, and this is about being aware that some people value security and don't want to be promoted too quickly. So just if you're thinking about accelerating progression for people, think about whether or not this is right for them. Next up, we have cause driven. And what we're saying here is that for people who are driven by service or supporting a cause that for them, influence is what matters, and having a voice and having a seat at the table and being in the room where it happens, these are the things that are perhaps more important for them. So for these people, maybe progression up a seniority level isn't the right thing, but being invited into a room, being invited to a side of a desk project that helps them shape something aligned to their causes and beliefs, could be a good way to support them in their progression growth. And then last up, we've got the Shackleton challenge, and this is really about the pure challenge seekers and those with that anchor. And there's a quote from Shackleton, who I'm sure many of you know of, Ernst Shackleton, who was an Arctic explorer in the early 20th century. And the quote says, men wanted for hazardous journey, low wages, bitter cold, long hours of complete darkness, safe return, doubtful honor and recognition and invent of success, right? And what he's really calling out there is that some people are drawn to that pure challenge. So while it's good to recognize that and try and identify people like that, it's worth bearing in mind that there are risks around bringing those people in, because you as an organization need to be ready to deal with them. So if somebody comes in with that drive and desire for challenge and provides a solution, you need to be able to acknowledge that solution and help look to embed it.

That's, I think, six really useful lessons for organizations on how anchors can affect them, right? And I really the thing I was thinking as we were talking about it was when you mentioned, it's emotion. It's emotion. I know. I just thought, God, if I was trained now, if I had people moving into management roles or senior management roles, and I had time to train them or give them some training on one thing based on that, it's got to be emotional intelligence and personal relationship building. Yeah, right, yeah. Like, they can learn everything else,

job, things, I can do, all of that. That's interpersonal skills. Yeah, so important, or so important if you want to use

food, yeah? And I think, and I think it's really just, you know, Shine was talking, when he was talking about it, he was saying it's because every day they are making really tough decisions and having to say no to people they like, and they've

got to prioritize. They need to manage themselves. They need to be in a good state, and I think, and they need to condition, yeah, they need to still motivate their team, even when they say no to them, yes, right? And that's tough, right? Hard to do that. No, but yeah, but no, no, but yeah, but no. And on that note, that's a great list. Thanks very much. So

let's jump into some stories from a keyboard, and I'm going to kick us off here. And the thing that I wanted to touch on was to do with a mixture of these anchors, so it sort of crosses over between technical, maybe security, maybe lifestyle. And it's something that I've observed when I've been delivering leadership programs, and most noticeably, female leadership programs, but it comes in in a whole. Range of things. And what we've seen in the organizations I've been in when we're delivering leadership programs is that you'll get senior leaders at different points to potentially identify where they see talent within the organization. So they'll come up with a list of people that they think are ready and capable of progression. They've got, you know, skills currently and potential, and they'll pull out a number of people and potentially say these people should be on a development program to help them make the step up to the next level. And often, what would happen is they'd identify people, then we'd go in and start to deliver programs to those people. And what I found, particularly in the female leadership program, is that about 10% of the people that I spoke to that were on those programs said, I don't want to progress. You know, somebody's identified and suggested that I should be progressing, but I don't want to progress. I'm happy doing what I'm doing, and I want to be where I am. And that goes back, potentially, to the desire for security and stability. People who have that desire probably don't want to progress. Some people who are technical might not want to progress. And those who've got a mixture of lifestyle balance within within their sort of existence might not want to progress if I think it'll impinge on on the other things that are important in their lives. So I just think it's really important to to think about the different career anchors that people might have, and to maybe not make assumptions about them, particularly when you're assessing the people within your organization and who might progress. So I guess that's a story for me, is a lot of people that you assume would want to progress maybe don't. And it's just worth bearing that in mind well. And I

think the language is really important. You can progress in your work without progressing absolutely through the organization, and you can progress up without taking on managerial leadership, yeah, in some organization, yeah.

And you know, to be to be fair, we used to speak, uh, times, about progressing to broader or more senior roles, yeah. So we tried to bring in maybe some of that broadness, or Yeah, we talked a phrase that came up a lot, which is a bit silly as a career traverse, where you look at lateral moves in organization and things like that, but it was normally the seniority progression that people didn't want. Yeah,

and I think, and I think it's, it's a very directorial, organizational led attitude, right? You are able to do this, we believe, so we don't care if you want it or not. And I don't, I know they do care, but they don't think about whether someone they assume, because the people up there are majority General Manager lists who assume everyone's got the same anchor as them, which is up the crew ladder. And it's exactly you start to unpick it, and you go, yeah, I get why this happens, right? Yeah. What about so I kind of want to talk about the fact that I have both responded to and experienced the Shackleton challenge. Okay, so both someone once pitched in a job to me, who should remain nameless, in an interview that basically said, it's bad, it's worse pay than you've had before. We haven't got an office. We haven't got any furniture yet. It'll be just two of us. It's a really hard job that I'm not even sure is possible. What do you think? Yeah, and of course, I was like, ah, that sounds amazing. And what was really clear was that person was open to ripping up rule book the way things were done. So I had an opportunity to go in and change things, which was bit scary, but was in in line with what I had been challenged, the mistake I made when I first issued a Shackleton challenge. Okay? Was I did it when there was a restructure. So for a start, I was drawing from a limited pool, yeah, of an organization that hadn't traditionally recorded, recruited people who might have had pure challenges there anyway. And also, they were in a period of instability, right? Yeah. So they were limited in what they could apply for, yeah. And consequently, it made them feel uncertain, and they were pushed into it. And actually, also, I hadn't got the organization to a place where they were ready to make changes anyway, within our team, okay? So even if they had been able to identify and work within that construct, or if it wanted to, and they'd wanted to, and they'd been able to find things that would work, we weren't ready. So it was a really, really awkward time. And I learned a lesson of, it's all well and good to want people for pure challenge, a you've got to be drawing for a pool big enough to find them, yeah, but also you got to be ready for them, yeah, right. And I learned that first time, because I don't think they were that happy, yeah, until I started changing how we did things, yeah, quickly, when I worked out that wasn't they weren't like me, yeah, yeah.

Well, which is a good thing, yeah. Well, you know what with that? I'm going to jump straight on to some final thoughts and top tips, because what you just said there really fits with what my final thought is going to be, or my sort of reflection on this. And I guess for me, one of the big takeaways in relation to a lot of the things that we talk about, but particularly in relation to career anchors, is that it's important to remember that what's for you as a person isn't necessarily what's for others as people, right? So it's just important to know that what drives you, what motivates you, the way you see the world, is in no way necessarily indicative of things that motivate drive. Or influence other people. So you might be a mixture of, I don't know, pure challenge, and entrepreneurial creativity, and you might think that you're recognizing somebody by giving them a near impossible task for no pay, and that that's a great thing. I mean, that happens, and they might hate that, right? And whoever you are and whatever your views and predispositions are, assuming that what's right for you is right for the people in your team will probably get you into trouble at least once in a while. So it's just worth stepping back listening to people, inquiring, observing and doing all those things that recognize individual difference. So that's my thought for the afternoon,

okay? And for me, my single piece of advice is, never, ever, ever take a job or promotion without having put yourself through a little self interview of what are you going to have to give up? Yeah, because if you're not in touch on a regular basis with your career anchors, and they do change, you know, lifestyle, for example, when you get married, if you if you don't do that, it is really easy to accept something that appeals to one of your lesser anchors. Yeah, so let's say that your your definitive anchor is lifestyle. Okay, because you are in a stage in life, you've got young children, and absolutely that is the thing you want, that balance. You don't want to feel overstretched, and you want to be able to be able to not feel like you're into need to be in two places at once. But you know, you also really are, you know, a technical competence person to some degree, but it's just that your lifestyle Trumps that someone offers you the opportunity to head up the most exciting project. You're going to learn new skills, you're going to expose your new type of science, and you would, and there's more money, and it's ticking all the boxes, it's really easy not to think about what else is going to change, yeah, because if what you want, and I consistently, I see friction in people's personal lives around that,

yeah, absolutely, yeah. That's good, cool. Well, I think that's us getting to the end of the episode. It's just time to have a little bit of a checkout. I hope you enjoyed that. We've tried to focus a little bit more more directly and a little bit more concisely on a single topic. And I think we'll try and do a bit more of that this year. So just in terms of checking out again, you can check out our website, World of work.io, you can get in touch on Twitter, at the WoW podcast, that's probably the best place for us. And one thing we've been doing is we've been doing Twitter chats recently, which has been quite fun. So I think on the second Wednesday of a month, now it's 7pm UK time, we have a Twitter chat. People get together, and we ask a few questions and reflect on some topics. So far, we've done inclusion and diversity, and we've done well being, and and we're about to do one on motivation as well. So I think those are quite fun,

yeah, and if you want to look at ones, you can just go onto Twitter and check out our moments. Yeah,

that's right, or they're on our website as well. So I think that's probably goodbye from me, and it's goodbye from me. Bye guys. Hi.