E151 – Bereavement and work with Naomi Collins

Hi and welcome to this episode of The World of Work podcast today. We are joined by a friend of the show, Naomi Collins, who is a talent and leadership expert, but also a researcher about bereavement and people's experience of work during those periods. Before we get into the main conversation, Naomi, it'd be really lovely if you could introduce yourself to the audience and say a little bit about yourself. Yeah,

absolutely. So my background is in psychology. I have an undergrad in Psych and a master's in Organizational Psychology, but actually my day job is in talent and leadership development, so I've had experience both working in consultancies, and I'm currently working in house now

brilliant, and we know each other, right? So yeah, you're joining us because we did our masters together, and I've been waiting, and James has been patiently waiting to for like, a year for you to come and talk to us about your research, because we're really excited about it, right? So why don't you just tell us a little bit about the research you're going to be talking to us today.

Yeah, so my research project for my masters was actually quite a personal one for me. So I experienced bereavement about six years ago. I lost my mother, and for me, it was, it was quite a difficult time at the start of my career as well, and I found that not many people knew how to interact with me. And I found the experience very difficult, and ended up actually, you know, resigning and going and traveling the world a little bit. You know, I lived abroad for for a period of time as well, and that kind of motivated me to see if there was anything out there in terms of research about bereavement and the workplace. And actually, I found that there really wasn't, which was quite surprising, but then, in a way, that spurred me on to actually do my research in that area and really hone in on it.

Okay? And I remember like meeting you on day one of our course, when we didn't really know what we're doing, but you already, I think we had a talk on the first day, and they were saying, Oh, you gonna have to do research. I already had an idea, right? Yeah. So you came in thinking, I Not, not necessarily, I want to make things better for people, but definitely, I want to understand how, how it works. Is that right? Absolutely.

So firstly, there was a real curiosity as to, was my experience something that other people had. And actually, as I spoke to spoke to people kind of anecdotally, yes, but I really wanted to understand what was going on, like what was behind that, and definitely there was real purpose around

it. Okay, that sounds really interesting. And we love anyone who does research that comes from personal perspective, because for us, it helps people understand why and where it's come from, I guess. I mean, I've read your paper, I love it. I think it's incredibly helpful, but so that we can make it really simple for everyone and get their heads around it, I guess there's a couple of pieces of information that's helpful to understand. So I guess the first one is, You talk a lot in your research about identity and identity transition specifically, could you maybe explain to the audience a little bit in simple terms, what you mean by an identity and identity transition?

Yeah, of course. And identity is a word we hear quite a lot at the moment, but identity, in essence, it's who you are. It's the answers to the questions, who am I? What am I about? Essentially, and it's not simple to just be and exist and have your identity. And we have multiple different identities. So you have your your core, your self identity, and that is who, who's Jane to Jane, but then you will have other identities. So like with me, you'll have your friend identity, and that is something that you negotiate with me. I perceive you to be my friend in a certain way, and we negotiate that relationship. But everyone has identities, whether that is you know, their partner, friend, their job and all of these different identities can actually be competing with one another. So you could be, you know, some kind of high flying lawyer, but then also sideline as, like a comedian. And actually sometimes they compete. So that's quite interesting. Do. But in essence, you have to work at then having those identities. And that's something called identity work. People undergo transitions in identity after big changes. So thinking in the workplace a work event that might trigger a an identity transition would be getting a promotion to a manager after being an individual contributor. So that's a it's a big shift, and actually a lot of a lot of people end up needing transition coaching to kind of help ease that. But obviously there are other things that happen to us. We don't just exist in the in the work bubble. We have lots of other things happening outside of the workplace. You know, whether that's having having your first child or getting married, there's lots of different things that can influence who you are. And might dial up or dial up, dial down, how you show up at work. Okay? And

that makes total sense, so, and I can think of it right? I can think of times where I was, I got my first senior leadership role, and you go away, don't you, and you you kind of question, is it okay to be me as I am? Do I want to be me as I am? How do people see me as a leader, versus a versus in my team? And I think especially when those those transitions happen in the same organization, that's weird, right? Because they're like, one minute, you're with people on one identity, and the next minute, it's different. And I always think, I always used to joke with one of my bosses that he was, I knew him from outside of work as well as in work, and I used to joke about how he was such a different person. He was this person out of work, and he was bit he was quite, he was quite funny. He was quite, you know, charming. He enjoyed socializing. But in work, he was not introverted, but definitely very serious, very simple, very straightforward. And it always, it always struck me that I didn't really understand it, but I was in what he saw them, yeah, so I always found that weird. Okay, that's really, really helpful for understanding a bit of a backdrop. Now, I guess the second question that'd be really helpful to understand is around bereavement, what do you mean when you're talking about is it, is it like a time? Is it a period? Is it a process? When you talk about bereavement, what are you referring to?

Yeah, and it's a really good question, actually, Jane, because I remember, as I was doing doing my research, having to actually define what bereavement was, was quite tricky. There were multiple, you know, different definitions. And, you know, is bereavement, the actual passing away of someone is bereavement, that grief process. And actually, I chose to look at it as that transition period. So bereavement might start to, you know, commence even before someone has passed away. And it can go, and it will obviously go on for for kind of a long period. And there's no clear cut definition of how much time that would be, or anything like that, really. So for me, I define it as the almost akin to the identity transition someone might go through with a bereavement. So

does that mean that when you're thinking about bereavement and talking about it, you're talking about the period that someone identifies as being in a period of bereavement, they've come out the other side. And if it's a kind of in some sense, it's defined by that person, right? Definitely. Yeah, it's completely based on that individual. Okay,

and does do people? I mean, sounds like a really obvious question, because I feel like I know the answer, but I'm gonna ask anyway, do people experience bereavement differently? What are their themes about how people experience it, or how does it show up for people? Well, there

are some commonalities, which we'll come to it in the moment, but bereavement is really different for everyone, and it's going to be different based on who is the person that they have lost, and how I link it back to the piece with identities is actually how central to your own identity is that person that you've lost. So it's not as simple as defining that, oh, you know, they were my mother or my father, or they were my wife or my husband, and therefore we must have been really close. It's actually, how much does that person mean to you in your kind of sphere of existence? And then that can impact how the, you know, the magnitude of someone's bereavement, really,

yeah, and I'm very conscious. We're talking about very sensitive subject, but I guess the same thing, I time, I want to I want this to be useful for people. And I guess one of the things I was just thinking about was so I lost my dad last year, and my dad, he was very, very, very ill for a very, very long time. And so the experience I had when he passed away was so different from any number of my friends who lost their parents. I guess before would be commonly expected. You know, my dad was also very old. It wasn't it was not a surprise. And therefore my experience of it, while whilst also was really hard. Was completely different from some of my friends who might have lost their parents earlier in life, or in different ways or quite suddenly, and it just even in that moment, you can imagine, I think, the scale of experience of people. So it must be, I guess, it makes it quite hard for people around people to be able to relate or be able to get guess, I guess what they need or what they want? Yeah, definitely.

And, you know, it's quite sad really, because I've spoken to people that have lost, perhaps their grandmother, and then the level of support that they get. Other people go, Oh, that's not so sad. Is it like your grandmother was really old, or you couldn't have been that close to them. But actually, it really is dependent on the individual. And, you know, I've had these people come up to me and be like, you know, my grandmother was like, my second mother to me. We were so close we had, like, a really different relationship than other people would expect. But then there isn't a space for them to kind of exist in and have that, that kind of validation for the fact that they are grieving and that they're sad.

That makes total sense, right? So we now, let's get on to your research, which is really exciting. So I feel bad saying excited. It feels like the wrong thing to say about this topic, but I am so bereavement, terrible, time, different for everyone, a period, really, of quite a sort of life shock. Let's go with or big life event you're interested in is what happens in the way that people think about work or experience work, or the way that they're experiencing or choosing to experience work. And I guess what I'd really like to do is by stop understanding what happens to people when they're thinking about life and work, when they're experiencing bereavement.

Yeah, and you know, bereavement really is a shock. I think someone someone passing away that's close to you, and even if it is, you know, like you say, it might be expected, it still can be very shocking to an individual, and this kind of triggers, what I found in my research anyway, is it triggers a kind of search for meaning. So people go through this process of complete reevaluation of everything in their life, so that includes themselves, their own identity, you know, who? Who am I? Who am I in this world? If someone can just die like that, what's the meaning of my work? You know, what is the meaning of life? They go into this kind of existential analysis, and that's where this links into the workplace, because suddenly, all of these, the self questioning, this kind of, you know, search for meaning, self exploration and reevaluation, they start to look at what work means for them within the context of that that's

really helpful and actually not surprising at all, actually. Now you say it, of course. I mean, I totally recognize what you're talking about. I remember it, and I remember actually being quite shocked about it, because I had expected I was, you know, to some extent I knew, you know, I knew it was God's passing away. Wasn't surprised, but I recognized that I still threw me into a whole period of like, Huh? I think I might think about the world a bit differently now. Yeah, so makes sense. So we start rethinking when this happens, and we start, you know, wondering what works doing for us and all of these things. What else did you find?

Yeah, and so, I guess the the way in which people then experienced, and when I say their workplace, I mean how supportive their manager might have been how people treated them at work, the content of the work. All of these things help them. They're signposting to them during their searches for meaning what importance or what value is my job. And so because of the differentiation between individuals experiences at work, people then had different identity transitions that they underwent following a bereavement or during and following a bereavement. Brilliant. So

there were you found four, didn't you particularly so why don't you just briefly run through what four you found, and then let's talk about each of them a little bit more so that we understand

them. Yeah, sounds good. So the four identity transitions I found were shielded, demoted, demarcated and tainted work identities. Cool, that sounds serious. Okay, let's start with

shielded so shielded work identities, they relate to when someone wants to actually preserve or protect their work identity. So in my research, I found that individuals that were going through quite a painful or maybe even a stigma with their bereavement meant that actually they saw work. Back as a place of salvation for them, it was something that they really wanted to retain and uphold. It gave some people a sense of kind of control in a in the world of chaos that is bereavement. And so these individuals kept their work related identity and their non work related identity very separate. And so actually, one of the individuals referenced that many people didn't even know that her husband had died. Perhaps one other close confidant at work did, but she liked that, and it gave her kind of this, like I said, this, this salvation, this one peace, peaceful place that she could be in the chaos of the rest of her life.

And I think, I think that's, I think that's extra extraordinary, because when you think about it, I can't tell you the number of times I've been participant to conversations where people pass judgment on others for the way they're experiencing something, whether it's bereavement or something else. And I can imagine a work environment, everyone's like, well, they seem completely unbothered. But actually, what you're saying is this was, in some sense, either a coping mechanism or something at least, that is shifting in the way they think about and this is something that's providing work is a place where they don't have to think about it. Yeah, absolutely. And so maybe, maybe there's something for us all in that about, you know, never assuming that we can possibly imagine why someone is choosing to experience something in a certain way. Yeah,

and, and, I guess a piece I kind of missed out earlier, when we were talking about identities, but how we perceive ourselves and our our self definition, that's something that gives us self worth and self esteem. And if one of our other other identities, such as a non work identity, is kind of dragging you down, and, you know, devaluing, you probably will want to shield those, those identities that are giving you kind of, you know, well, we've all done it and esteem. Yeah,

we've absolutely all done it. Something's going wrong somewhere else. Forget bereavement for it, but something's going on going wrong somewhere else in our life, bad breakup. Maybe we've had a terrible charity morning, we find salvation. And this is the thing I'm good at. This is the thing that I am recognized as good at and I can take pride in. Makes total sense. Okay, so that's shielded. Talk to us a little bit about demoted.

Yeah? So demoted work identities. This is where, in comparison to other work ident and other identities, even individuals lowered, they kind of de prioritized their work identity. And for a lot of these individuals, they actually referenced how highly they did value their work identities before bereavement. So, you know, they were a lot of these individuals were in quite high flying jobs. They spoke often about, you know, wanting to climb the corporate ladder. And, you know, next job, next job, next job, very driven individuals and bereavement during those searches for meeting gave them the kind of, I guess, the perspective to go, Hey, wait a minute. Does this really matter? Does my work matter as much as I think it does? And, you know, people often talk about is that, like, you know, that kind of end of life, like when I'm on my deathbed, is, am I? What am I really going to be reflecting back on? And it's not going to be, you know, I climbed the corporate ladder and I got here, and anyway. And so these individuals, they just lowered, lowered their work identities in comparison to other identities. They

literally demoted their work identity, demoted them under something else. Yeah. Okay. And so, I guess for organizations supporting those people, it's about giving them the space and time to adjust and refine where that work sits in their life. Yeah. And actually,

interestingly enough, the individuals that demoted their work identities, they did have really supportive workplaces and, you know, work and managers and kind of social systems around them in the organizing organizations, and so I guess it's worth pointing out that it's probably inevitable that people are going to, you know, have it, have a different work identity following a personal bereavement, and the two we've spoken about, shielded and demoted those really. I mean, we can't say those are the best ones, but, you know, those seem more healthy in comparison, you know, more stable. And people

talked about them. When you spoke to those people, they seemed more able to I guess. I don't want to say find peace, because that sounds terrible, but, but to be comfortable with how that's happened in their lives and they're okay going forward about it, yeah.

I mean, these were definitely the individuals that, shall we say, were the least traumatized by how their workplaces had kind of treated them essentially. Okay.

Well, let's okay. That's probably a good. Point to, then move on to the next one. So let's talk to us about, talk to us about demarcated. Yeah,

so demarcated. That's that's essentially a word for separate. So separated. These are the individuals that reference their their work identities as kind of their whole identities. They really define themselves with their job title, and it seemed there wasn't really much room for anything else, actually. And these were even individuals that you know were married, had had kids, but they really defined very strongly with their work identity. Now their workplaces were less kind of less accommodating, shall we say, than those with demoted work identities. And actually, quite a few of these individuals had had a really, really tough time, and during their searches for meaning, they really they realized there was more to life than just their job. They started referencing that, actually, you know, I'm more than I'm more than my job, you know, I'm a father, you know, I am a husband, I am a friend. And that they suddenly had this realization, actually, they have other work identity, other identities. And it almost seemed like they diversified, that their self worth and their self meaning across a range of different things, maybe as a form of kind of self preservation, but they definitely pushed, pushed away from their work identities in that sense.

And is that in some senses, that did you find that the sorts of people that were experiencing that was there anything around like being able to better separate, so were they? Did you find that they were separating their work and their selves in a practical basis, so, you know, literally prioritizing being a parent and all of that more?

Yeah, and a lot of them changed jobs, actually. So I think they probably found themselves in workplaces where work had to be there everything. You know, I'm talking about roles where perhaps that they had high billings targets, and they therefore could be working all hours of the day. And actually removing themselves from that kind of environment help them to separate it physically and become these other identities brilliant.

And let's talk about the last one. Yeah, last one. I'm nervous about talking about this tainted. So tell me about the experiences of individuals that you described their transitions as under the category of tainted, yeah, and

so tainted, it's all in the word, really isn't this was by far the most severe identity transition individuals went through work identities. It refers to the degrading in value of identities. So as you mentioned, there was a couple of different things happening here, but for most, it referred to the way individuals had been treated by their employers, most often their managers, actually, and this perception of mistreatment from their employers, it it was really, really it resulted in a really strong, um, result.

Okay, so really strong result. Tell us about that. What happened to people leave? What? How does it? How does it show up?

Yeah, so people felt that they their humanity had been reached on the most basic level, people had lost someone really close to them, and they just felt they hadn't been treated as a human. There was a breach of humanity for them, and it was such a strong kind of perception of missing, mis injustice that that people actually resigned almost immediately afterwards, they just saw that now their work identities were associated with the way that they had been treated. You know, people referenced that they couldn't possibly be part of that organization the way that they had been treated. They had to get rid of that work identity by resigning immediately, even individuals who had really valued their their job title, their career and loved their jobs previously, suddenly that label for them, that identity, it was contaminated, and they the easiest way for them to maintain any value, any self worth at all was to suddenly disassociate completely with that identity and resign.

And that is both horrifying and completely unsurprising, right, like when we're experiencing extreme trauma in our lives, if our organization is not able to give up, if not support us, at least. To not treat us inhumanely. Yeah? Then it can't be surprised to anyone listening, that that triggers a really, really strong reaction,

of course, and at its core, it's really self preservation. You know, people will resign if they are being treated not as a humane, as a human. Yeah,

and obviously, like, you know, your relationship with your organization. Organizers have enormous power. The organization we work for full time, particularly if you do, has enormous power over our lives. It decides when and how and what we do and all of these things. And if we can't trust that in the period of extreme trauma, they're going to look after us. It kind of breaches some level of societal responsibility, it feels like to me, yeah,

absolutely. And if you think about how much employees give to employers, you know, day to day, day in, day out, and something so shocking, and you know, one of the worst experiences someone can go through a bereavement. It it's just, I guess my research really highlights that during that period, it is one of the most sensitive periods where not only have they lost someone so close to them and they are in a really vulnerable position, but they are immediately triggered into this search for meaning and the way that employers and managers actually respond to individuals in those times, in that kind of time of need, it can, really, you know, determine whether that individual will stay, what they will think of, you know, work in the future, just general support, really, this, it can be done in so many Different ways as we as we've seen by the four kind of, you know, shielded, demoted, demarcated and tainted. How employers respond to people going through bereavement is, it's impactful. It's meaning, okay,

name it. Just talk us through. What are the four types of identity transition that your research looked at? So we have shielded, we have demoted, demarcated and tainted,

brilliant, and you've told us there a little bit about each of those that's been really, really helpful. I guess the obvious question coming for our podcast that we always ask everyone is, what's your advice then? So let's imagine for a moment, someone's in a workplace. They're working alongside someone who's in a period of bereavement. What would your advice be, based on what you you've experienced or what you've learned, that they can do to support that person? Yeah,

so I think there's a number of things that that people can do to support those going through bereavement, but you know, thinking in the context of my research, the first thing is to remember that they are a human being, and actually just to treat them as such. The second is to think about the fact that flexibility is really, really crucial. People will experience bereavement in different ways and these identity transitions, they're not they're not just linear, they're kind of messy. And people can go back and forth between being in a good place and a bad place. And so ongoing support is really helpful. And just checking in with that that individual, and just supporting them.

So really, there's an I think, and I think it's really important to come back to this. I think, in all of the world of psychology and work psychology, particularly, there's lots of models, and there's lots of curves, and there's things like the grief curve and all of those things, and all of those things demonstrate, if you don't know them well and haven't read the research, a linear process, right? Yeah. And it's not, right? Nobody who's been, we've, I've never well, I've never spoken to anyone who's described it as such, yeah, right, we're human, and humans are messy. So I think that's a really amazing message. And I also think that your last point is worth repeating. You know, just offer support and be kind, being kind and treating people like humans. Sometimes, when we're scared of something and we don't know how to deal with it, we go to a policy, we're like, oh, what's the policy for someone who's bereaved, and do they fit into the category of close family or not? Just Just stop worrying about those things and take a step back, yeah. And try and think, How can I be human and connect with this person and and allow them to at least feel that I am working in their interests, even if I'm not getting

it right? Yeah. And, you know, give yourself license to ask that person how they're doing. It's quite funny. I used to have people say, Oh, I didn't want to bring it up, you know, I didn't want to remind you of it, believe me, that person is not then they've not forgotten that's an experience they're going to be having for a long time, and you referencing that, you know, they've gone through this is helpful to them. It's not going to suddenly make them go, Oh my god. I'd forgotten that. You know, this person had passed away,

yeah? And, I mean, I remember early in my career, it happened a couple of times, and I did that. I did exactly that, yeah. I just totally swerved it. I was like, I'll just let someone else deal. That. And then I had some really good advice from someone, and I can't remember who it was, but they said, why don't you just ask podcast listeners will know this story, not this story, but the output, which is, why not just ask them how they're doing today? Yeah, because as soon as you ground it in today, it gives them the option. If they don't want to talk about it, they don't have to. They can say, Do you know what had a really rubbish journey into work, and if they do want to talk about it, they can say, You know what, today's a really bad day for me. Really bad day for me. I've been thinking about it more than usual, and that gives people a license to choose, but it doesn't, it doesn't have that sort of slightly vague How are you doing? So there you go. That's my advice for nothing, no research, but I quite like it. Naomi, thank you so much for coming talk to us about your research. I know we've talked about, both of us have talked about how little research there is in this area, and how I just, I'm still a little bit blown away that organizations don't question why there's no research scenario, because we all experience this, right? So many of us are in work when we're being I mean, that's just, that's the common norm. So thank you. Thank you for sharing it with us. Thanks for sharing with the audience. I guess my last question, as always, people are interested in you. Is there any way that they can connect or get to know you? Yeah,

absolutely. And please feel free to reach out to me. I'm on LinkedIn under Naomi Collins, so if you do a search, you should be able to find me there.

Yeah, and we'll tag you in when we publish the episode as well. But until then, just thank you very much for coming in. We've been waiting ages. It totally lived up to explanation. So thank you. I know it's a very personal topic to you, so I really appreciate you. We especially appreciate you coming on and talking about it, and that's all from us, so goodbye from me and goodbye from me.