E149 – Busyness and slowing down at work with Fiona McBride

Hello and welcome to this episode of a world of work podcast. We are in February 2022, now, and today we've got a really exciting conversation lined up. We're going to be speaking to Fiona McBride, and we're going to be exploring a conversation that started as a focus on mindfulness, but has broadened a little bit more beyond that now to reflect the role of pausing and slowing down and intentionality and things like that in our lives. So if we just start at the beginning, Fiona, could you introduce yourself and say a little bit about yourself and your background to the audience, please? Hi, yes. Well, firstly, thank you for having me.

My name is Fiona McBride. I'm a learning consultant, so I'm freelance, and I've been freelancing now for, gosh, actually, just recently nine years. Wow, weird, actually, if I think about it, feels like a long time now. I work with a variety of different clients, different sectors, different industries. I kind of go in and support learning development teams, learning development professionals in their work. I do a lot of facilitation, and I'm also a yoga teacher, which might give you a little bit of a clue as to why I also find this topic very interesting,

brilliant. It's great to have that crossover. I love it when personal interests coalesce around our work interest, and we get all that sort of intersectionality. That's really, really really fun, and I'm very excited about today's topic, and I'm glad it's broadened beyond just mindfulness to be taking into these other areas. I guess I want to just start with a sort of observation or a question, and that's around how most people tend to feel about that work at the minute. You know, one of the senses I get is if I go out and if I have a conversation with somebody and I ask them, How are you doing? Quite often, people will come back and say, yeah, good, busy, right? And it just feels like like busyness is all around us. Despite having been through a pandemic and all this kind of stuff, it feels like people are busy. What's your take on it? Do you get the sense that most people live in a space of feeling busy? Or how do you feel and how do you feel? We value that state of being busy?

Yes. So I agree that I find that that is a common response that, oh yeah, I'm busy, or things are really busy, or things are quite hectic. And can I just say, from the off, I've also been that person that says that too, so just not knocking that at all. And I find that really interesting, because, of course, it is our lives are, aren't they? The world of work is ever changing and busy, and then everything outside of work that we have to do, you know, with, see, friends, be with family, hobbies, all the things you know keep us busy. I think I find it quite interesting, though, the word, because I don't know what you think, but I wonder, it feels like that term has a negative kind of connotation to it, sometimes that, oh, I'm busy. And then you know what kind of comes after that? Word is maybe negativity. Because actually, if we're focused and we're productive and we're occupied, if we've got things happening that we're interested in, isn't that a good thing? But I think I've seen more so in recent years, the word be used, and then, yes, what follows that is maybe, maybe it's a code word, maybe for, like, overworked or stressed, you know, which is a serious issue, obviously, or not supported, or too much on your plate, you know, those kind of descriptors, yeah. So I'm kind of quite interested in the use, yeah, the use of that word and actually sits behind it,

yeah. And I'd echo that a little bit. I mean, I feel that it can lead to that sort of negative connotation, or a bit of an indicator of being too busy. But at the same time, I also feel that sometimes it's a bit of a badge of honor. It's a bit of a, you know, I'm demonstrating my social worth. Look at me like I'm busy. I've got so much demand on me, and because I have that demand, it means that I must be a valuable producer in my social circle or in my workplace. So I feel like it's that sort of dual edge. You know, there's a little bit of complexity around it. I think,

yeah, and I wonder as well, if there's something around that kind of desire for some people, that desire to be seen as competent or as smart. Art, or as capable or as good as our peers, you know, like there's something in that too. And then also, I've been thinking about this, obviously, as we were talking about doing this, having this conversation is that I wonder

if we are always busy, if there's always something happening and going on, then maybe that means we don't have to focus on some other stuff. So maybe there's something about, I don't know, the reality could kick in around something. I could pick anything out of the air. You know, we might have to address an actual issue that's happening somewhere else in our life, or in the in the work, work life, of course. Um, so by being busy and having that, yeah, I'm really busy, things are really hectic. Actually, it helps us to avoid, for the want of a better word, something else. I don't know what you think about that. Yeah, I, I had

a conversation a few weeks ago, maybe a month ago, with somebody, and we were talking about, talking about, I guess, life in general. And the phrase they used at one point was, there's nothing as scary as an empty calendar. And I was just like, Wow, isn't it, like a fascinating take. This is somebody who's really quite senior in the world of business, like, you know, heavily, heavily occupied in the workplace. And I just thought that was so interesting. And like, for me, there's so much embedded in there about how we think about that empty space, and what, what, you know, what we need to do to feel that. So I do get the sense that we derive value from being busy, from being busy, and it brings us good stuff, and we derive self worth from it. You know, people think that we are valuable if we are busy, and then I guess the inverse of that is, if we aren't busy, sometimes we can hold that heavily as a reflection of who we are. But also, like you say, if we have this void to fill, this emptiness to fill, that can be a real challenge. And I guess there are different aspects to that challenge. I guess it can be, as you alluded, that we need to address certain aspects of our lives or our existence that we might not want to. So that could be mental health, or other aspects of it that sort of creep into that. But then there can also, I suppose, be some sort of competence type thing, wherein we probably feel some need to turn that time into something that feels useful for us as individuals, is rewarding for us, and that can be difficult in itself. It can take self direction. It can take creativity, it can take all those things. But sometimes, if we live on a treadmill, we lose our ability to do I guess it's, you know, something's just popped into my mind. It's kind of like Google Maps. You know, if we have Google Maps, it'll tell us how to get somewhere. If we have our time blocked up for us and we're busy, it'll tell us how to use our time. And if we take those things away, we need to navigate our own way through life, which can be a bit of a funny thing.

Yeah, that's really intrigued me. That person saying that is if, if or when, you know, my calendar is clear. So often it I almost physically can, sometimes, like, breathe a sigh of relief. You know, I wonder, as well as I was hearing that, you know, being a freelancer, it to have big gaps of space in your diary can sometimes be quite scary. So to be non busy, whatever word we would use, can be a scary thing.

Yeah. And and that piece around needing to keep, I know we're not focusing specifically on freelancers in this conversation, but I think it's quite interesting about that, that need to kind of keep going and keep kind of getting out there and bringing work in. So actually, if I'm having a down point, a quieter point, recognizing that that's good, and allowing that to be a thing, and giving myself that space to slow down, to restore to rest and etc, which I know will come on to,

yeah. So, so if we think a little bit more about that busyness in itself, what do you think some of the real benefits are for us as individuals of being busy. And what do you think some of the things that we sort of lose are, if we're always busy, I suppose

if it's productive, if it's a productive busy, then I suppose it is that piece around getting things done achieving that you know, that drive that sense of worth from doing achieving something, and maybe if you're working with other people, then it brings in that sense of teamwork, or that sense of helping others, you know, so it goes. It ripples wide, doesn't it, than just yourself.

It just struck me that some of the things that you called out were some of those sort of underlying factors that fit behind certain well being type models, where you look at things like achievement. You can look at things like engagement in your work. You can look at things like, you know, relationships and some of some of that aspect. So all of that stuff really does feel like it fits in with aspects of subjective well being. What do you think some of the things are that we might lose if we are busy all the time or Well, you know, what's the cost of being busy all the time? Yeah, so I suppose there's something around

if we're moving that quickly, if we are that busy, then are we ever truly doing our best in each task or in each situation? Right? Because if we're rushing, us as a pace that's quite speedy, we're getting things done and we're really busy, then we might miss a trick, as they say. I also wonder about health, physical and mental health, that's a big thing in all of this, for me, is that if we're constantly in that fast paced environment, if it's constantly that the sympathetic kind of nervous system in its fight or flight mode. You know, there's a lot of adrenaline running, and we're kind of, you know, keeping going, keeping pushing through and long term, that is not good for our well being. It's not good for our physical or mental health. So that's a big one, I think.

And how do you think our like ability to function is affected by stopping. I guess I'm asking because for myself, I sometimes feel that in some ways, I do my best thinking, or I have my best ideas, or I'm creative in these spaces between my busyness. So my unintentional, passive thinking can be really great for me. So I find that if I focus on something, I achieve a certain type of productivity and output, but at the same time, if I sleep on something, if I go away from something, if I leave something in the back of my mind and distract myself with other things, I can find that I come back with clarity and certainty where in the past I didn't what's your experience of that?

Yeah, I think clarity is a word that definitely resonates with me. I also think there's something about like processing time. So in those spaces between, in those spaces where actually we can slow down a little bit, then we allow our brain to catch up. We allow our thoughts to kind of sit and kind of just be a little bit more don't we, and there's if we can be more curious and a bit more creative, and I think there is definitely, I've definitely read this, like research out there that shows us that curiosity is an intrinsic human trait like that. We're naturally like that. We're naturally curious, which means that actually, if we can foster that a little bit more like in our day to day, then there's definitely a big benefit for us as individuals, but also within organizations. And I don't think we always allow for that we don't recognize individually, and so within organizations, within teams, actually to slow down and to allow ourselves to think things through and to be a little bit curious and ask maybe a few more questions, that can be extremely helpful when we then get back into the work or get back into the busyness.

I love that image of slowing down and letting your brain catch up. I think that's such a powerful image. It's got the, you know, the motive force that's in there, of the pressure of the business that we have. How do you describe those moments of seeking tranquility? What is that to you and where does it appear in your life and your existence?

I you might have got me there. That's a really good question. How do they appear? Do you know sometimes they're planned? So sometimes they appear because they're planned in I'd say probably most people do plan a bit of downtime, right? That's quite I mean, the way we work with being like that five typical, like, five day working week, two day weekend thing, right? That's almost planned in but at other points, so like having quieter evenings in the week, or having slower starts to your morning, or having slightly longer lunch break, or, you know, all those little places where you can drop in a bit of planned restfulness, slowing down kind of feel important and appear. One

of the things that's in my mind about how one you know is calm is something that I struggle with a little bit, which is permission and guilt around it. If I feel that I am not keeping myself busy, personally, that brings a weight of guilt to me, and I almost feel that some sort of structured calming is a helpful thing to me. So maybe there's something in that that different people take. I think the ability to fully switch off and take unstructured tranquility, unplanned tranquility, can be hard, but I'd be interested in your thoughts about, can we structure tranquility? Can we create senses of sanctuary. Can we bring those into our own lives through habits or routines? And can we do anything to bring those into workplaces in a way that doesn't feel like totally kooky and out there, but that is helpful for our workplaces? There's like 15 questions in there, I guess we just start, what are your thoughts about that sort of like structured tranquility and way? That we can find moments of that in our existence. Yeah,

and thank you. I think I'm pretty certain that most people know that they need to slow down and pause like we recognize it as a thing, but many people can't, right, and we've kind of touched on that bit already. And in fact, I think some people actually will step up their busyness, big to even kind of overlap that, you know, and I wondered, as well as I was listening to you just then, I was thinking quite often, rest and relaxation and slowing down can be seen as a reward or a treat, and then we maybe can only get that when we've worked hard enough, but actually, when would that be? Because the world is mad. We are all busy in many different ways. Organizational life is constant and changing. There's always something coming up next. So actually, if we don't try and find these spaces and build them in and acknowledge that they are useful to the busyness. They help these slowing down spaces can help with the times that are busy, that do need our energy and our drive, that's that's really important and and there are a number of things that I've worked on with clients in the last few years, and then more so as I've developed my yoga teaching, because I've been able to bring more of that into my world of learning consultancy, which I never thought would be a thing. It's quite bizarre still around slowing down and pausing and taking a breath and seeing that as a tool, as a technique to then getting back into work and keeping going, and keeping energy levels at healthy energy levels. And it can be as much as for some people, some of my clients, can be as much as, you know, getting away from the desk. And I know this sounds people listening might even just be like, really like, we all know we're meant to get up and move around, but it's really true. If you move your body in a different way and you give your eyes something different to look at, and your brain something different to focus on, that can be a refreshing kind of moment in itself to then help you when you sit back down and you go into your next meeting, and that can be a couple of minutes. That doesn't have to be half an hour walking, you know, around, or an hour's yoga class, it literally can be a couple of minutes. And that can help your brain to switch a little. There's some lovely kind of facilitative techniques around like for groups as well, not just for individuals in the workplace, but there's lovely kind of group activities that I utilize through liberating structures, which are these lovely group activities that can be done in small groups and large groups, and some of them are done in silence. And then you give people individual reflection time. Then you come together in small groups and start to share, and then you get into bigger groups and share a bit more. And they're a really nice way to switch up a conversation and give people that pausing moment, that thinking space, that slowing down opportunity before being asked to then contribute and give ideas, and then work together, which I really like. And then there's another thing that came to mind, which you might have heard of, is street wisdom, which, if you haven't heard of it before, I'd fully recommend just put street wisdom into your internet search browser, and you will be able to find some resources. It's all free. It's amazing, and that is exactly what we're talking about. It's taking an opportunity to slow down, move the body by walking, and just giving your brain that chance to settle and then maybe see new things and then start to think about ideas and be curious and come up with different thoughts, ideas and workings out. You know?

Yeah, there's some, some lovely stuff in there. And this link back to creativity seems to come up so much in these conversations about finding a pause, finding space for tranquility, finding finding space to like you said, Let your brain catch up. That seems to be a really common theme here. I really resonated with your description of rest being a reward. That totally sums me up. I think different people are different, but my personal experience is that I wake up with a sense of a need to do things and be busy, and once I've done my busyness, I can switch off. In many ways, I'm kind of the opposite of a procrastinator, and I don't feel able to do nothing until I've done something and then, and I think that's something that is that's interesting, that I think speaks to that. That sort of fear of an empty calendar, and how does one get that achievement, reward and satisfy that sense of needs? But one has before one can be busy, and that's something that personally, I strive to work on, because I'd like to see being tranquil as a good thing in itself, and not something that needs to be taken as a reward, but something that is as valuable in many ways as being busy. You know, I'm trying to reframe it for myself as an investment that sort of improves my well being, improves my productivity, improves my lived experience, improves the impact that I have on others. And so trying to, trying to hold on to that is great, but at the same time, like many people, I sit down on my desk and don't move for X number of hours because I get sucked into something, and my brain ticks over. And that's that's the bit that that's really there.

I think it would be really interesting actually. Will you have you seen in the press about this introduction of this testing of a four day working week on productivity. I personally haven't yet sat down and started to properly read into it, but it's definitely on my to do list to pay attention to, because I think that could be a really lovely example of actually, if we give people a little bit more downtime, how much they can ramp up their productivity. I mean, there's data out there already that's showing that it's a good thing, but I think this is it, something like 30 companies or 30 organizations in the UK have signed up to it. I think, yeah,

I'm not sure. I've read things from other countries, and I know there's stuff going on, but I've not looked at it specifically. It would be fascinating, yeah, I

think that would be really interesting to kind of watch that space and see, see what happens. Um, I was wondering as well as we've been talking about, it's, I know it feels really it's easy to say people should take a pause, people should slow down, but actually, it's not easy to do, and I really think it's important to, like, recognize that. And there'll be lots of reasons why. For some people, it'll be really deep reasons. For some people, it'll be because that's what they've never they've never been able to do it before. So what do I do? And I often think that can be the hardest thing, because it can feel really alien for people to actually be still and to be still in their body, but also acknowledging that the mind doesn't just suddenly stop working, so we might slow down and stop moving, but the brain keeps thinking and planning and kind of Yeah, it's ticking over. So there's something about that physical act of stillness, which is all slowing down, which is good for the physical body, but I think there's something for the mind as well, where we have to maybe be patient and give ourselves a bit of a break, especially if it's not something we're used to doing.

I completely agree with that, and I think, you know, we in so many of our conversations, we often talk about the mind and body being these different things, and we certainly conceptualize them as that, and we hold on to them in a lot of the way that we see the world is anchored on that sort of dualism and and I guess, you know, some people would argue more of it, there is more of that connection between them, which I think is really interesting. And I think that whole pausing, and some of the things you've spoken about, about moving, really comes to the fore when we think about that, with that difficulty around pausing, 100% echo that and see that in many, many different people. And I think there are a couple of things that that underlie it. And one is that, you know, our minds are loud, right? Like the mind is just a loud thing for many people, and if we don't keep ourselves busy, then then it can fill that vacuum of space. And sometimes what it fills that vacuum of space with is unpleasant or unhelpful or distracting. And so maybe for some people, it's less relaxing and tranquil to be calm or try to be calm than others. And another thing is that I know that for some people, the world can be a bit of an overwhelming place as well. You know, the physical scale, the infinity of the world, all those things, if one actually thinks about them, that can be a daunting thing in itself. So I think, I think there's something difficult about slipping into pure existence without all that distraction. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I

completely agree. I'm literally sitting here nodding my head, of everything, and I see this the most. So it's most obvious to me when I teach yoga, because I teach a number of different types of yoga, but my main one is restorative, and that's where you come into a yoga studio, or you're at home, and you lie down and you're propped up with things with like pillows and cushions, and you have blankets on you, and you're you've got layers on because you want to keep keep warm, and you lie still for potentially up to, like 15 minutes in like a shape on the floor, like in a posture on the floor. And so often in the yoga world, people see the other kind of yoga, which is. The fast paced flow movement on the mat, standing up, handstands, balancing craziness as the hard stuff. But I really don't think it is, because when people come into the studio with me and I'm asking them to lie down and be still and be with themselves and their mind and their body and everything that comes with that for an hour, that's hard work. And I get that that's like really hard work. But there's different things we can do to kind of help people drop in into that, and to try it and to see how it feels, and just to be with it and go with it and see what comes up. And that can be really, really powerful for people. So I think there's something about actually, yeah, remembering that it might not happen straight away, and being okay with that and being patient with yourself. But if you're recognizing that a few more breaks and a few more pauses might be useful for you, whatever they look like, walking listening to music doesn't have to be lying down in meditation or restorative yoga, it will all benefit you in that moment and in the long term. And that's that, I think that's the key really,

restorative yoga sounds brilliant, by the way. I didn't know that that was a thing, but it sounds like it's right up my street. I've done other yoga, and sometimes I just lie down on the floor on my own, just to, like, have a little rest. That sounds absolutely

wonderful. I think I find this is why I find this whole topic so interesting. Because people get energized by exercise, don't they? So you can be energized by going running, or you can be energized and refreshed by going to a yoga class, or you're moving constantly, but the body can be really restored by slowing down and stopping so physically within the body, you're taking that switch from the sympathetic nervous system into the parasympathetic nervous system, and that's often referred to as rest and digest, which is literally what it does, like what it says on the tin. That's what it does, because you're allowing your body to slow and to settle. You're allowing muscles to relax, bones to get heavy, and you're allowing your mind just to Yes, the mind might be a bit kind of busy, but it's also slowing in a way, and your breath is slowing down, and all that is a brilliant way to restore and to bring energy back to yourself, you know, in that moment and like I say, kind of in the days to come, kind of it's, it's really powerful. One

of the things that sometimes is on my mind when we think about this stuff, we clearly know there are benefits to it, and it's still hard to do, and we know that creating habits are hard and all that kind of stuff. What do you think we can do or say to leaders or managers about bringing in space for calmness and tranquility? How can we sell the benefit of this for individuals and organizations and sort of maybe shift that narrative away from the need to be actively producing at each moment to building in these other things and seeing them as this sort of social good as well. So

is that where we're coming back to the piece around if we have, if we're a bit slower, if we can have a little bit more space to think and to gain clarity and to have reflection time, then all that stuff means that we can be more productive that we when we are then focused on the work. We are more focused on the work. We have more attention, and we have maybe greater ideas or different ideas, because we've had a little bit of space and time to think about things.

Yeah, I think, I think there's something in that. And how might we get, you know, leaders, to believe in this stuff and to really see that there's more value in that? Is that something that you think we can do? Or how do you work with leaders to help them see value more in this and believe in it.

Yeah, I think I'm always really careful, because obviously I'm talking about this and I'm really passionate about it, but I get that it's not for everyone. So I'm sure some people may be listening to this will be thinking, well, I get it, but actually, I don't find that being that busy, you know, is that detrimental to me. You know, everyone has their different place. So when I'm talking with managers and leaders, I invite them to consider themselves and think about, what's their busyness, how's their kind of day or week kind of built up, and where do they maybe need to and the language obviously, is different for different people, but like, switch things up, or maybe take pauses, or build in reflection time, or reflective practices in ways that are work focused. Because what I find is, if I go in there with a, do this for yourself, and it'll be great, and you'll really benefit from it, sometimes there's a bit of resistance. So if I go in there with a, if we do these things, it can help our productivity. It can help you to i. Better team meetings. It means you might listen to each other more effectively and you might be heard more. You know, those that kind of language often works better at first, when it's quite an alien concept, and starting with the managers first and exploring it with them is really good, because once they get on board, it's easier for them. In my experience, it's easier for them to then kind of sell that out to the team. Plus, if you're someone in the team, and you hear your manager saying these things, but you see them doing it too, then it gives you so much more permission to then try it for yourself. So there's that kind of take on it, I think. And then, yeah, asking the managers to check in with a team and get their ideas on how this can be done. And so some teams that I've worked with, some managers, so that I've worked with, with their teams, they've put, they've all agreed as a team, to put little spaces in their diaries, and there's like a team code, you know, like a code word for chill or something, you know. So they agree that actually, if they see chill in someone's diary, they're going to maybe try their best, unless it's an emergency at work, to leave that space free and not kind of ask for that time as a meeting or to make sure they finish the meeting on time so that person can get to that more restful space. That's just kind of one one example. But I also think there's something about that culture within the organizations about moving, and it's okay if you're away from your desk, you're still being productive. So just because you're not sat at your desk, you know, we presenteeism, and that's where a whole other topic you could talk about and explore, but say, you know, being away from your desk and letting your brain think and work things out and ask questions of yourself or of a colleague in a slightly different setting, like walking, you know, together, or being on a call. But walking around outside your house or in your garden or around your house can be so beneficial. And you're still working because your bright brain is still taking over, and you're still working things out, and you're kind of planning and all the stuff.

Well, you talked there a little bit about reflective practices for managers. Could you say a little bit more about

this? Yeah, and there's many different ways that people can be reflective in their work. And there's really simple things and there's complicated things, but so for some managers, it could be a case of, at the end of every day, before they finish work, they have four or five minutes where they sit, they've turned off kind of email or whatever, to put the phone on silent, and sit and reflect on the day and how it's been. And it could just be an open kind of reflection. It could be not specifically themed in any way. It just be, how was today that it could just be that simple question for some people, they like structure. So they might have decided for themselves, or with me, kind of a number of kind of questions that would be useful reflection questions for them to guide them in their reflective practice a little. And so it could be like what went well today? What could have been better? What might I do differently tomorrow? And it allows that kind of settling down and that processing of the kind of the day and how it's been. And it's also quite a nice way to then switch off then from the day to have captured your thoughts to then go into the rest of your day, whatever that is, or your evening, and then come back into work and kind of check back in. And some people will do that by, yeah, literally sitting and having a couple of minutes and thinking. Some people will do that on their commute home, or walking the dog, you know, like, or going for a walk or a run, some people might like to write it down. So there's some lovely practice, reflective practice, where you can write and get it down, like through the pen, onto the paper, and then it can be a helpful record for some people too. You know, to then come back to in that way, some people do voice note kind of journaling. So they'll record onto their smartphone, and then kind of come back to that, but it's a really, it's a really nice way of sorting through your thoughts, maybe sense, making, maybe not, but just allowing that space for whatever emotion is there, whatever feelings have been there throughout the day, just to be, I suppose, acknowledged, maybe processed a little bit, and then for some people, they can move on. And I wonder if that's another piece around this topic that I think is really important, is when we slow down, we gain that ability to maybe experience our emotions more, whereas we don't, necessarily when things are super fast, super busy, and we're kind of non stop, because our emotions and our gut feelings are there for a reason, and they tell us a lot, and they can be really helpful. It can be very helpful to acknowledge, why did I feel irritated? Oh, that was such a win. I feel the success. Or why didn't I feel pleased when they told me this, you know? And and just process and sit with that. A little bit,

yeah, a lot of what you described there makes me think a little bit of transitioning between states, and I imagine it helps introduce sort of boundaries between one state of being and another state of being. So I'd imagine that things like this help us transition, potentially, from a busy to a less busy state in a helpful way.

And not everyone needs that, and that's why I say it's quite it's quite individual, isn't it? But for some people, they need a tool or a technique just to help them along the way with that a little bit, because we can't really expect people to go from this busy state and then suddenly stop. That's quite unfair, and that's the same in in yoga and restorative yoga, I don't just get people to come into a room and we suddenly stop and don't move for an hour. We do small movements, and we make movements with our hands. We do breathing practices to help the body to transition into that different state. So it's, yeah, that's a nice word, that transitioning. What little transition can you do today to help you shift a little bit can be really, really beneficial if

there's a sort of manager out here listening and they'd like to bring a little bit more of this calm and tranquility and maybe, you know, challenge some of the volume of busyness in their teams for the benefits that Doing so brings into their teams. Have you got any thoughts on on, you know, maybe one thing that you'd recommend them do to learn more, or one way that they could start doing things differently in their team or with their team, some pathway and for them, what's your experience of helping people introduce this as a way of working?

So some managers can easily say to their team members, right? I feel like it'd be helpful if we did x, what could we do? And the team have loads of ideas, and then, you know, typical kind of, let's vote on one and give it a try for a couple of weeks and see what happens. And I think that's really nice, because then you're kind of getting those ideas from the people that you're trying to support, rather than making a load of assumptions about what you think is the right thing. Plus, the other point to that is that you're maybe trying it for a couple of weeks, so the first thing you ever try might not be the right thing, and that's okay. So maybe see it as like a little experiment, and think, ah, next week we're going to try and all have a bit more of a break away from the screens. How might we do that? What could be kind of quick wins. You know, everyone loves that term, don't they nothing too kind of heavy going or too much planning involved, and just see what little things can be brought in or tried. And I think it is, again, it does a lot of this comes back to culture. So when I talk to managers, say you have to be really clear. So if you are genuinely saying to your team that you you really want them to slow down a bit, take a few more pauses, whatever the language is you're going to use, then keep reiterating that point, and also mirror that yourself a little bit, or talk about how you've been finding it too. And then there's loads of like free resources out there as well. So on my website, I'm going to put up short I'll be putting up shortly, like a little gallery of, like a two minute breath awareness video. And, you know, we have the internet nowadays, so there's loads out there, but finding, like, a couple of little resources that you can just utilize that guide somebody through slowing down and stopping for all of two minutes. You know, it doesn't have to be like said earlier. It doesn't have to be kind of half an hour, an hour, and showing people that they can have access to that and again, give them permission to use it. And I do, I do a lot of management, leadership development, and I really just have to repeat myself like a broken record, but it really is like practice what you preach and talk about your experience of it, because then people will learn from that, and they'll hear that, and that gives them that permission,

lovely, that role modeling and sort of application of leader attention is so powerful when it comes to shaping what's what's in your team. I really liked your reference there to asking the team as well to doing a little bit of invitation and maybe set a bit of direction and invite people to shape what those building blocks could be for them. I think that's a really brilliant thing. Okay, well, I think that us just about to the end of time, would you be able to let people know a little bit more about how they can learn more about you and what you're up to.

Yeah, so you'll find me on social media. So Fiona McBride is my Twitter handle. I've got a website, Fiona McBride Also, my yoga stuff is on social media as well, on Instagram. So just Fiona Fiona McBride yoga. And I love talking to people about this, so if you've heard anything that's interesting and you just wanted to check in on an idea, or just ask me a couple of questions, and please just send me a DM or an email or give me a ring, and we could talk about it. That would be nice, and just ask me, because it's just, I think we need more of this in our lives. Lives, and especially in our working live, you know, working spaces. So I'm always really keen just to share some tips and ideas, if people want to know a bit more fabulous. Thank you so much. Fiona, thank you.