E125 – Managing and Working in Hybrid Teams (w Joanne Gray)

and here we are again with another episode of a world of work podcast. We've got a special one today. Jane, what are we doing today? Okay,

so today we are talking to Joanne Gray from the progress lab. The progress Lab is a progressive thinking consultancy on the mission to make work better for people. And we're going to be talking about a topic that we've actually been working with her on a little bit. So bit. So we've we've got a we've done a seminar, and we are also we've got a couple of articles coming out on the website, and it's all about hybrid management. Brilliant. Let's see what we have to say about that. Here

we are on the main body of today's podcast, and we're going to be speaking all about hybrid management. And we're really lucky to have Joanne gray with us from the progress lab, a progressive thinking consultancy on a mission to make workplaces and work better and help people in organizations unleash their potential. Joe, before we get into that subject, could I just ask you to introduce yourself to the audience and say a little bit more about yourself and your background and the different things that you're

working on. Yeah, sure. So first of all, thanks for having me here today. So I am a work psychologist, which, when I was thinking about this, most people kind of just do a bit of a nod and think, Well, I don't have no idea what that is. So I thought it might be helpful to just kind of explain what I do and why and it really boils down to the fact that I just think work is such an important part of our lives, and I genuinely believe everyone deserves to be in a fulfilling job. I've had my first job when I was 12. I was pretty industrious, and I literally have just gone through my life, you know, devoting a lot of energy to work. But you know, I know that in the real world, it's not always as easy, and that human dynamics have such a huge role to play in how we experience work. So I've tried to bring psychological theories to help other people, help inspire business leaders and individuals in order that we can create, you know, more positive environments at work, so that everyone can, essentially, you know, thrive and enjoy it, enjoy work in the way that we

should. Yeah, that's brilliant, you know. And that aligns so much with the interest for Jane and I have as well, and this sort of acknowledgement that we spent, you know, some people say 80, some people say 90,000 hours of our lives working, right? I mean, and you know, we just should make that as good of an experience for ourselves and others as we can, for all kinds of reasons. There are moral cases or business cases, but underneath all about it, it's a really worthwhile thing to focus on. Today, we're going to be speaking about hybrid management, and of course, we've got lots of questions about that, I guess, if we just start at the beginning, though, could you say a little bit about what you mean when you're speaking about hybrid management? What is hybrid management?

Yeah, it's, I know it's a bit of a buzzword at the moment, because, I mean, I'm seeing LinkedIn, is a wash with it. I've even seen someone say hybridization. I was like, Wow, is that thing. And I'll give you a kind of bit of background as to, you know, why I'm even thinking about this. So I'm currently doing my professional doctorate at university, and I'm basically at this stage of the program. I work on work projects, bring some evidence based practice to the project, and then I have to kind of write up about what I've learned along the way. And at the end of last year, I was having a lovely lunch out with my husband, and we were just, you know, chomping the bit on what's happening with, you know, at that point we're in lockdown, what's work going to look like going forward? And actually, as a manager himself, my husband said, you know, he genuinely was concerned that going forward, you know, there's going to be this desire for more people to work from home, and what's that? What's that going to mean? What's that going to mean for team dynamics? And that just got me interested in kind of digging a bit more in this area. And so hybrid management is the idea of where workplaces, particularly in knowledge, knowledge work, where people will be embracing a combination of working from home and the office. Now, there was a recent study in the BBC, and they said they surveyed, I think it was the top 100 biggest employers in the UK. And. And their evidence suggests that 86% of the UK's biggest employers are going to embrace this way of working as their future model. And whilst, you know, flexible working and people combining home and work, work from home is not new, I think it's the fact that it's going to be done on mass, is what's new. So that's why I was kind of interested in it. And it was funny, since that kind of lunch conversation, I just started, I mean, obviously a bit of attentional bias, but I started just seeing more and more around this. And this felt like something I really wanted to delve into the research, delve into the, you know, what we already know, and actually just start to formulate some hypotheses and ideas about what this is going to kind of shape up like, and what we need to do to be prepared. Yeah,

brilliant. And, you know, it's a topic that that I'm sort of personally emotionally engaged within as well. And in, you know, a past life, I had a team that was split across different cities, and one person working from home. And I've got to hold my hand up and say, it was really difficult, and it wasn't something that that I could manage well, and something else that was really sort of sticks with me from this is with that split presence, be it in different offices with different, you know, sizes of population and having people work from home, one of the things I saw was a variety of sort of mental health related absences creeping in because of that difficulty in creating what felt like a bit of a sort of equal and fair working experience for people. So I'm really interested in this. Obviously, at the minute, this is fairly topical. We're recording in early June 2021 with a lot of transition away from what has been a lockdown induced fully remote working for many organizations and people are sort of coming back into the different different ways of working, and as an expectation that there'll be a blend of some people in the office, potentially some people remaining working at home, if we end up in this hybrid situation where we have that blend that you're speaking about, what do you what do you see some of the major challenges being? Or what, what does maybe evidence say some of those challenges might be?

So I mean, in terms of those major challenges that I think the key thing is there is a lot to consider. And I guess, you know, again, one of our tendencies as human beings, when there's a lot to consider and it's really complex. We try to simplify it. And I think we really need to kind of discourage ourselves from doing that. It is complex. And, you know, I'm not going to get into all the logistical, the technical considerations, thoughts on the optimal hybrid model for, you know, for an organization, because also it's going to be, there's not going to be a one size fits all. It's going to have to be really specific to every organization. But I think you know, in terms of what my interest is and where I where I think there's some real challenges. Is the going back to your point of your experience, is the focus on manager behaviors, because they ultimately are going to be the enablers of making this, this hybrid model, effective. And I think one of the major consequences is that threat to fairness that's going to be induced by actions taken by managers who are possibly operating in autopilot, operate operating in the way we used to operate when we were in the office together, and possibly making some, you know, less intentional decisions that have consequences for individuals. So I think, and again, I'm hypothesizing. I'm, you know, I'm making predictions. We will, this will all play out in due course, but at this point, I think there will be a tendency for, you know, for managers to rely on ways with ways they've done things before. And I think when we're suddenly operating with mass flexibility, that could be problematic.

Yeah, and if you think about managers of a minute, or people who are on the cusp of moving back into this or moving into this hybrid way of working, or have recently done. So what kind of sort of reactions do you see them having? How do you think that they are facing into this change? What kind of things are they doing? What kinds of things are they thinking maybe? What kind of things might they be worrying about as well?

So I'm kind of seeing a bit of a mix of responses. I'm kind of, I get one ended skill. So I do a lot of work with with various different organizations in different industries, and so it's quite, quite helpful to get a sense of what of what's going on. But, you know, at one end of the scale, I get a sense that some people are kind of like, oh, what's all the fuss about? You know, flexible workings, nothing new. I've done this before. And then at the other end of the scale, I can see some managers are genuinely concerned that this new way of working is is an unknown, and with that unknown brings a whole lot of uncertainty. And I guess, you know, back to our I mean, you raised well being earlier. You know, we've, we've been through a really challenge. Changing 15 months or so already, we've been facing into uncertainty for for such a long period, and going more into more uncertainty, I guess, could be quite daunting for a lot of managers, and a lot of you know, employees going back so, you know, it's there's a lot of challenges to navigate in that response, I think, I'll be honest, I think those that are kind of like are, what's all the fuss about are, are potentially a little a little deluded, because I think there is a lot to consider in this space. Yeah,

I think, I mean, similar to James, actually, I've, I've had teams that have been holding multiple ways. So some have been hybrid, some have been home and some have been in the office all at the same time. And you know, it was absolutely the toughest challenge that I experienced as a manager, particularly, I think James mentioned in terms of like fairness and equity. And I guess that that leads me on to my first question, which would be around you mentioned about the idea of an inclusive approach. And I was just wondering if you could just explain a little bit more about what you meant by that. Yeah,

sure, so. And actually, Jane, before I kind of get into that, I would say, you know, I also now look back at my experience when I was working in a corporate role, managing a globally diverse, geographically dispersed team, and I actually now knowing what I've kind of, know, kind of cringe a little bit at some of the behaviors and decisions and actions that I took and I was based in the UK with the UK team, and I can see how actually now some of my colleagues who were based, you know, in other countries in Europe, probably did feel a bit like Spare parts at times. And actually now I say reflecting on that, you know, that doesn't sit comfortably. So I think that's maybe even be something else that's kind of fueling my desire to, like, let's level the playing field a little bit. So in terms of what I mean by, you know, inclusive and feeling included, you know, it really is this at the heart of getting hybrid working right. To be fair, it's at the heart of getting work right. Generally, everybody who is working should be feel that their contribution is valued and that they are valued regardless of, you know, you know, any diverse characteristics, but from a back to this point around hybrid, it's that everyone feels that they are part of the team, regardless of how many days they're coming into the office each week. And I think that that's kind of where the the potential challenges are going to be rooted is number of days in the office. So all of the kind of academic research that's been done into remote working in the past speaks to the advantages of being in the office having so one of my hypotheses is that those individuals who choose to work from home maybe more days than others, that's When they're they're potentially more at risk, because that idea of face time having a higher value than than the remote work, basically,

and it, I mean, you can see a world where it comes down to, like, something as simple as scheduling as well. Because it might, it could even be, I'm in the same, exactly the same number of days as James, but the days I'm in is when my boss is in. And therefore, without, you know, that presents a whole different set of challenges for managers in terms of managing their own biases, assumptions, what they see, trying to be equal. And, yeah, I just, I what you said earlier, just before we you answer that question around, like, looking back, and sort of, I think you use the word cringing, and I absolutely know that feeling. And I think, you know, I think it would be fair to say that a number of people that I have worked alongside and worked with would look back and feel quite similar about, in some senses, a little bit of a naivety about understanding the challenges when you're the one that's in the larger team, or the central team, or the team that's doing whatever they are more commonly, what, when it, when, when it there isn't an inclusive approach. And, you know, we've, we've all just shared that, perhaps we didn't even get it right, always. What? What does that look like? What's the problem with that? Why does it matter so much? Do you think? Yeah,

so. And actually, before I answer your question, that idea of naivety, I think that's the thing I would also want to kind of get across, is that most managers are actually trying their best, you know. So this is, this is by no you know, the intention is, by no means, kind of, you know, demonizing anyone for not doing, you know, doing a good job. I think, like you said, but it's more goes back to the idea that so often, just so much going on, so busy, and it's that autopilot and so so many of the non inclusive practices, I genuinely believe most people are not doing it intentionally. So I think that's that's really important, but in terms of the consequences, well, I think, you know, you just touched on there, Jane, you know, if some. One is getting more face time and recognition from the boss because they're in the same days or more often. Then then there really is the potential for the in groups and out groups to start forming. And when that starts happening, that's when there's a potential for conflict to start breeding, and then that then can, you know, culminate in sort of distrust if there's conflict, especially if there's conflict that doesn't get dealt with, that's even worse, right? And then that leads to more distrust within the team. And hey, that's clearly not very good for collaborative working. So it just it has a knock on effect on morale, team spirit, performance, you know, job satisfaction. And ultimately, if people get fed up with it, they leave. So I guess it's, you know, inclusive work helps create a sense of team motivation makes people perform better. It makes them more satisfied. So the consequences of not doing that are the counter,

and it it just, and I understand what you said the very beginning around you know, this isn't new, but it is now much going to be much more widespread, and we're already seeing that, and that's why it becomes a big thing is, I guess, if you think about the skills and the expertise that managers need to be good at their jobs. It is going to become increasingly common that managers need to be able to do this well to be really effective. And I guess that brings me on to my next question, which is, what, what's the phrase hybrid competency, and what relevance does that have? I know it's, you know, I've heard it mentioned a couple of times in one of the articles you wrote for us, I've heard it mentioned as well. What does that mean to you and how can, how can people start growing it? Okay,

so I will, first of all, I cannot claim to have come up with a word hybrid competency. So it's a term that was coined by Mark Mortensen. He's an associate professor at of organizational behavior in send. And his colleague, Martin has and she's a professor of management at the Wharton School, so in the US, much of their research looks into collaboration and teamwork, and they basically identify four key attributes for individuals to possess in order to thrive in in hybrid working environments. And they call these hybrid competencies. I'll just, I'll just talk through each one and what that means. So the first one is the the ability to think and act adaptably. So, you know, flexible mindset, being able to, you know, respond in the moment and, you know, adapt to change. The second one is around being able to really navigate complex situations and problems, which I kind of mentioned to earlier. Often there's this desire to deal with the complex by oversimplifying. I think we need to acknowledge complexity in its wholeest sense and actually try and work through that. The next competency is around having a proactive disposition, so being comfortable going out there and asking for help and asking for support and pushing, you know, pushing yourself, and ultimately, being comfortable with networking. And again, you know that I've spoken to so many individuals that you say the word networking, and I, not only, not only, I can, I visibly see them cringing, you know, literally that you can, you can see the bodily response networking. And ultimately, you know, I've seen on a lot of the resources you provide. You know, we know that the research absolutely tells us that developmental networks are one of the keys to our career success and career development. And we need to, you know, we need to be more comfortable seeking out, you know, net people within our network who are going to help and support us. So that's kind of the the four, the four key competencies in terms of how you grow them. I guess it's worth noting that some of these skills are absolutely going to come more naturally to some than others. And you know, so already that that presents itself as some having an advantage over others, but that said, I do think there's you know that we can help cultivate, whether that's through, you know, learning and development, through, you know, help from others and self development, but you know within what you know In terms of what managers can can do, I totally believe that, you know, effective communication is going to be absolutely critical in building hybrid competency, and that means managers setting clearer objectives, providing regular, consistent Fauci. Helpful feedback, but also really making sure that they're creating more opportunities for participation, so where everyone can feel like their voice is being heard and that they can speak up. So I mean that in a nutshell, is about creating a culture of support, which I think you know, is going to be critical. There's

a lot of there's a lot of great stuff. And those four competencies really help sort of bring to life some of the factors that'll that'll shape success or otherwise within those areas. And it was interesting hearing you talk about the fact that that, you know, some people are maybe more naturally adept in some of these areas than others. And it actually got me thinking as a, you know, real sidebar about a news article that came out here in the UK, where, at the minute, teachers are needing to apply grades or make a judgment decision themselves on the grades of students. And one of the things that came out was that teachers are potentially overstating academic achievement for people who are more agreeable, right? And that sort of that is a really interesting insight, and presumably there's a similar type of challenge in this environment when we move to the remoteness around the I guess, some of the traits or characteristics that people bring to the workplace. So I think that's really interesting when we think about, you know, organizations that are managing some of this transition weather or creating spaces that that enable effective hybrid working you've alluded to a few points, but, but what are some of the things that those organizations are doing? Well, you know, how do organizations intentionally step into this in a way that that creates more opportunity for, I guess, people to be more adaptable? You respond to complexity, proactive, networking ability, all those types of things. How do they aid that process?

So I guess one of the key challenges at the moment is that it's still such early days that we haven't, obviously got lots of great evidence of good practice, because we haven't, you know, we're at the beginning of the journey that said, I do, I do know a few organizations who are really trying to get ahead of the curve on this one, and they are taking proactive steps to encourage their employees to share their views, to acknowledge that we this is new for all of us. I think you know, one piece of advice I would kind of give organizations and managers right now is, don't feel you need to have all the answers, because actually, if you kind of accept a little bit of vulnerability that you don't, that's going to create an environment where actually people are going to feel like they can speak up more and share their thoughts and sort of, you know, highlight what some of the challenges for them is are going to be. So I think that idea of, you know, just trying to create a space where you can really start garnering insights from from everybody, in order to figure out what the kind of best way forward is is going to be. I think in terms of building those competencies, as I said, going back to the idea of, you know, communication just, I just, I mean, I say, feel like I say this one all the time. Might be my background in in marketing, but, you know, communication, for me is just the glue that sticks everything together. And so many times, you know when, when we're seeing challenges within organizations, you know, ultimately, it normally boils down to the some problem with the communication. So I think that's just going to be so key at the minute is just making sure that the communication loops are open and the the right community communication channels are being used for the right messaging. Because, again, we're quite guilty of kind of, you know, using email for everything. And I've now seen everyone's just using video for everything. Now it's like, that's not always helpful.

So I've got a question sort of following on from some of this, and it's, I guess, a bit of a step back and reflection on some of my experience doing this stuff as well, when we're talking about some other things that managers can do. Well here, it feels to me that there's probably quite a high level of prerequisite clarity and knowledge about specifically the objectives and the outcomes of your team, in a way that I'm not sure that in my experience I've had or all managers have had. And another thing within this is that it feels like there's a lot of intentionality and effort and focus that one would benefit from applying to things like dynamics in your team and task allocation all this kind of stuff. Do you feel that this transition to wards for more hybrid ways of working to do it well would require a higher allocation of, I guess, manager resources to focusing on this area. Or do you think it's just the same amount of time spent on management before, but in a different way?

and, do you know what I'm gonna I'm gonna take the it depends option on that one. That's the organizational psychologist, you know, rite of passage. But I think, I genuinely do think it depends, because it kind of depends on the context, it depends on the manager. It depends on the individual. I guess you know what is going to be absolutely critical is that there, as a manager, there does need to be real clarity on kind of who is doing what, and the interdependencies between projects, not only for for the team you manage, but for the for the interdependent teams within the organization. So I think that's going to be there's going to have to, you know, Silo working is not, is not helpful anyway, in any organization. But even more so going forward, when you've got teams of individuals who are, you know, dispersed by location. There needs to be that clarity, you know, right up at the executive level on, you know, like you say, the objectives and how they link to other people's objectives. So, you know, one organization that I do a lot of work with lately, I was looking at their executive teams objectives. And it was really refreshing to actually see, you know, this is a senior leadership team. Have got objectives that are interwoven with another member. So, for example, someone in HR, theirs was linked with someone in marketing, and they were almost, you know, the identical objectives. That, for me is really refreshing, because in many organizations I've worked in the past, or I work with the objectives themselves can be kind of departmental and siloed. So I think there really needs to be more openness to collaborating, as you know, with other departments and really making sure that the objectives are, you know, if there's interdependencies, that they are interdependent right at the top level, yeah,

so, so that interdependency piece is really clear, and I like that example that you bring of having, even at a senior level, the interdependency brought to light through mutually shared objectives. Um, when we when we look at things like this, and as we've alluded to it a little bit before, trying to make sure that people have, I guess, an equitable experience is important in this. And as we move towards hybrid, we know that the building blocks of fairness and equity are different, right? So different people just have those different experiences based on the different time they have a different you know, overlap with different people for the different tasks that they do, and they've got less visibility of what other people do. I guess, just as a question, what is the impact if we end up with people who do have fairly different perceptions of equity in what's being asked of them in their role, and what they're given the opportunity to provide in their role, and how they feel they're being treated within their role. What's the impact of disparity of sense of equity in a

team? So equity? Do you know before I sort of answer that, I think, I just want to, I think in terms of the whole notion of equity versus equality, because this one comes up quite a bit. And someone, actually, I haven't seen this image, but someone said to me last week, we were talking about equality versus equity, and someone said they'd seen a brilliant image, which is where you've got a concrete wall and you've got a bunch of people looking over the wall, and you know, equality is where they're all stood behind the wall. Equity is where you give those that are a bit shorter, a little step up so everybody can see the view. And I think actually we need to, you know, we need to talk about equity within organizations as much as we do equality. Because actually equity is about distributing resources so that everybody has an equal opportunity. And I think actually, again, if we can kind of use that language, and, you know, explain that, you know, somebody who is new within the organization, who hasn't yet, you know, maybe has spent the last year working from home and has never met their colleagues, their needs when they come back, and if they're operating in a hybrid way, are going to be different to someone who's, you know, five, six years tenure, motivated, you know, well experienced doing a good job. So I think as managers, you know, go back to that point around how they, you know, allocate resources, you need to be really focused on how what different individuals needs are, and how you can make sure that everybody has the opportunity to see above that wall.

That makes, I think that's a really I know the exact image you're referring to, and I think that makes total sense. I want to, I want to ask you. Little bit, because I possibly in your work, certainly ours, we're coming across managers exactly as you describe them, who care about giving a positive work experience of work to their teams, and who are, at the moment, relatively focused on the logistical transitions that are going on. And I totally understand that we've got to get that stuff sorted. We know that we need different tech. We know we need different setups. Some of us need different shifts, all of that. But we also know that from what you say, there's a whole other chunk that they're not even getting to, and they'll be listening to this and thinking, Oh, my life, I haven't even thought about some of this stuff. What? What would your advice be to them about how they go about preparing themselves and their teams to be able to think about this stuff more.

Okay, so firstly, I would say, you know, don't, don't naively convince yourself that this is going to be easy, right? So I do think it's complex. So we, you know, treat it as such. And I think I mentioned that earlier point. I'm, you know, I do not, I do not believe in one size fits all approaches. I think you absolutely it's great to find out what other organizations are doing. It's good to, you know, listen to this podcast. Come, you know, come, read, you know, read resources. But I think you absolutely need to think about how you tailor the way of working for your organization. And I think that what maybe to make it, you know, because when you think, Oh God, where do I start? I think I often find it really helpful to kind of really look at this at three levels, so start mapping out the needs at different levels of the organization. So First all, you know the top of the organizational level. Thinking about, as we said, before you know the whole organization, you know what is needed in terms of employees being in the office. Is there a requirement for a minimum, you know, minimum number of people to actually be in each day. Are there certain days of the month that the you know, the organization would like everybody in for, whether you know town halls or staff meetings or whatever? Is there certain you know periods of the month or year that it's going to be helpful to have you know more stuff? So really thinking it at that top level and understanding, you know, what is the, I guess, message from the top in terms of vision and, you know, values towards flexible and higher, you know, remote working. And once kind of got that, that's, that's that piece of thinking, then it's really starting to think about that team perspective. And again, we touched on that already, but the idea of, you know, what, what are our current objectives, what are the live projects, what those product, Project interdependencies? And really thinking about, you know, what, what am I asking people to come into the office for? Am I asking people to come into the office to collaborate, to work on projects together so they can be more effective. Am I asking team to come in to tick a box? Because I think they should. And then how frustrating is that when someone comes in to tick a box and they've literally sat at the desk all day and could have done that at home, and, you know, enjoyed a lion, so I think, you know, thinking about what, what, what do you need from a team perspective and why, always questioning the why, and then at the individual level, this is where it gets quite, quite challenging, because it's really important to try and consider what each individual, you know, team member wants, what they think they want, in terms of flexibility, but also consider what's in their best interests, and you then have to marry that to what's in the best interest of the team and what's the best interest of the organization. So I think, you know, there's a real job here to kind of really understand what's needed at every single level, and recognize that there's going to have to be some compromise along the way. We can't all just have what we want. We have to make some compromises. But if you again, if you're using, you know, really solid communication in this and you know, recognizing that we have to reach an optimal solution where actually we're all going to, you know, potentially have to make some some compromises to get to that optimal solution. I think it's going to be really important to encourage team members not to be too rigid. So I think if you're a manager and you've got team members like, great, I'd like to come in Monday, Wednesday, Friday, I think you need to say, well, you know what? That would be great. And I know it's going to help you, possibly, if you've got some commitments outside work that you need to, you know, manage. But we need to, if we're, if we're all operating in that with that level of rigidity, that's going to, I think that's going to cause problems. So I think, you know, we need to remind everyone that flexibility, the word flexibility. Is about being flexible. And, you know, it's going to involve reciprocation, and it's going to involve that, okay, one week I'm, I'm, I may be needed to come in on a Wednesday. The following week, I may be needed to come in on a Thursday. And just, you know, allow for some, for some of that flexibility.

Yeah, there's quite there's quite a lot still to think about, isn't there when we when you start at first glance, when you think about, Okay, I'm gonna have a team that's mixed, and some of them will be remote, and some of them will be part true hybrid. And when we start thinking about all of that stuff, and really unpick the details of how much where we work, shapes how we work, it a little bit mind blowing, and I would imagine a little bit scary. And I guess my last question for me, um, has anyone doing it well at the moment, like, have you even got any examples at the moment of, like, little little things other organizations are doing that at least improve the situation around this stuff? Or is this really everybody sort of guessing until we figure out what works. So

the organizations that I absolutely know that are kind of ahead of the curve, as I would say on this one at the moment, are still very much in information gathering stage, you know, trying to figure out what is going to work for individuals and trying to kind of go through that exercise that I just described in terms of that mapping exercise and asking lots of questions that's that seems to be say, there's a few organizations that I know are are doing that right now. So unfortunately, I've got any sort of brilliant examples of good practice yet, because I think they're yet to come. But yeah, a lot, a lot of those that are kind of really thinking about it, are thinking beyond just the tech and the logistics, but really trying to work out. And as I said, I think it goes back to that idea that, you know, at this stage, the hybrid working plans should be iterative and just expressing to everybody. We haven't done this before. This is going to be a learning curve. Let's not set anything in stone. Let's give it a go. And if it's not working, everybody needs to start putting the hand up, and we need to kind of go, oh, okay, that needs a little adaptation. That's so I think that notion of and it goes back to that hybrid competency of being able to act adaptably

Brilliant. That's a very nice way to summarize, hopefully a fairly productive way to embrace this type of working in a safe environment where we're all sort of learning and failing and improving together. So I think that feels like a really good message, and it's great to know that there's so many people in the same situation of trying something new, and hopefully we'll get lots of lesson sharing and more research as we go through this. That's time wise, kind of the end of the podcast, I just wanted to check in before we go. How can people find out a little bit more about you and the work that you do and learn more about this subject?

Yeah, well, in terms of find out about more about me, you can visit my website. That does need updating, by the way, but so you can visit www.theprogresslab.co.uk You can follow me on LinkedIn. I'm quite busy on LinkedIn, so feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn. And obviously, there's loads of resources already on World of Work website that that, I think, touch on many of these points. In fact, many of the points that we've raised today. I know you're, you have loads of great resources there. And I think, you know, I think kind of as a lasting message, I would say it's going to be really helpful to be more intentional, be more curious, and reflect more right? And I really can see, you know, work has intensified in the last year or so. We have, we have become obsessed with this idea of being busy. And I think that's problematic in itself. It's, you know, it's not helpful. And the problem is, when we're operating in that busy mode, that's when there's this tendency to operate in autopilot and just do what we've done before, because it's easy to draw in on and so, you know, to be more deliberate and intentional in the way we manage that does require this, you know, stepping back, pausing, reflecting, bit more mindfulness and and, you know, really rough. Yeah, thinking, thinking a bit harder, rather than just being on this kind of little hamster wheel. So, yeah, really, really take a step back. I think is would be my lasting thought for everybody, brilliant.

Well, that was excellent. Thank you very much, Joe. It's just end. The show. So it's a big thank you from me, and it's a big thank you from me. Thank you.

Welcome back to room with us. That was our conversation with Jo Ann Gray, where we spoke about all things hybrid working Jane, anything that you want to reflect on based on that conversation.

Oh God, there's so much that we are still trying to figure out, aren't we like about this stuff it sounds like, and there's still, you know, so much to understand about how people are experiencing it, when, now that we're on a much larger scale of experiencing it, I guess the thing I would I would come back to, and felt like somewhere to really start and be rooted in, was the full competency she talked about. So that idea of adaptability, getting comfortable with complexity, being proactive in your behavior, and, you know, focusing on networking and developmental networks, that felt like a really good, solid place to start.