E111 – Power at work (part 1)

Hello, this is James, and this is Jane, and

here we are again with another episode of a world of work podcast, and we're doing something a little bit different today. We're experimenting with a new style of podcast and a new topic. So Jane, what are we speaking about today, and what makes this episode a little bit different

for us? Oh, James, I'm so glad you asked. So the reason I'm glad you're asked is for two reasons. One is I'm super excited about a slightly different format. Different format, and two is, it's one of my favorite topics. So I'll start with the topic. First. We're going to talk today about power in the workplace. We're going to talk about power in organizations, and start to unpick that. And the reason it is going to be slightly different is that those of you who are regular listeners will know that generally, our episodes are either research structured episodes, so we have a piece of research and then we have a structure that we go through to help you understand and implement it, or they are interviews and discussions on a topic with an expert in the field. Today's different because it's just you and me. I know, but we're having a conversation. It's

weird, isn't it? I mean, like we have conversations all the time about all these things, but we don't really structure our podcasts in the right that way. So it's, um, it's going to be exciting to do that, and hopefully something we can do a little bit more of is as we go on with some of the episodes as well. So, um, you mentioned at the beginning there that power is one of our favorite topics of a minute, and one of your favorite topic specifically, my sort of sense is that we might end up doing more than one podcast on this because it's such a big topic and there's so much involved in it. So I think today we're probably going to focus the conversation a little bit more narrowly and have it be a bit of an introduction to power. Is that fair? And if so, what do you think we're going to try and focus on today in our discussion?

Okay, so I think that is fair. I think depending on how well this episode's received, I think we'll probably explore a little bit more about how different people have conceptualized power in the workplace and thought about power, and then we can explore that and what that means for our audience. But today, we're going to focus on the idea of power as something that one can possess, either as an individual or within a relationship. So we're going to focus on the sort of more I hate the word traditional because I don't think it is a traditional approach, but certainly more of the earlier ideas about what power is and how it turns up in the workplace. So we're going to think about the more common way power gets talked about. So it's something that people have in the workplace. It's something they can possess. And we're also going to briefly talk touch on French and Raven spaces of power, which is a theory that goes into a little bit more detail about how someone possesses it in relation to someone else. So they have a lovely little list of depends how many, depends how early you go into their research. But five or six bases, five or six different ways of thinking you might have power in a situation. There's like things, like attributes that you might have that would give you power, or,

yeah, kind of and the reason we're going to do that is because, as always, James, we like to keep our podcast as practical as possible. And my experience of using French and Raven space of power is that it is the first place to start people thinking about what power they do have in an organization versus what power other people have or senior leaders have. And I think that's a really important conversation.

So before we get into some of this, I've got a couple of questions I'd like to check out. I'm just going to start with one, and it's, it's a big one, which is, you know, why do we think understanding the power that we have in a workplace is important? Or, why do you think understanding our lack of power in some instances is important? So why is an awareness of our own power or lack thereof, an interesting concept in the workplace? What does it do for us as employees or leaders or managers, oh, man, you started with a big question. You don't do that when

we have guests, we start with simple questions. Okay, so why do I think that's a really good question, and I would say, as always, there's a few reasons, and it depends, but at its simplest, I think it's important, at the very least, in any organization or team you work in that you understand how power is showing up. Because if you understand how power is showing up in your team, you will have a better understanding of the dynamics and the drivers of people's decisions and their actions. And I think. As you know, I believe that when you understand what's going on around you, you have a far better chance of acting in your own interests and acting in the interest of the team and in thinking about what's right for the organization. And so for me, it's really important for that reason. But there's two others that I would probably particularly draw attention to. One is if you understand where the power exists, you can help in dismantling it, shaping it, addressing it, challenging it, questioning it, and all of those things are good for healthy teams, right? And the more that there is transparency about where power does and doesn't exist, I think the better chance that you have in making it work for everyone. And the third thing, I think, that's really important, is understanding what power you may have in a situation, okay? Because I think, Well, firstly, everyone who has ever listened to us will know that we obst with autonomy and the importance of the human need for some level of control over their own situation. And so by understanding the power dynamics, by understanding power and where it sits, or where you might have it, or how it manifests, whatever you want to think about in terms of power, I think if you can see that, and you can see where you do have options, and can build power or influence power, or influence people with pad, depending on how you think about it, then I think you've got a better chance at happier life because, yeah, fundamentally, you get what's going on, and you are able to work within and around it, and, if necessary, challenge it. Yeah,

and, you know, I jumped straight in on that piece about sort of happier life or fulfillment and all this stuff. I think that, you know, knowledge is a powerful thing, and if you can develop an awareness and an understanding of the factors that create power dynamics around you, then it is kind of like an ability to see through the emperor's new clothes to some extent. So power might exert influence over you as an individual, but as soon as you see the ways and the mechanisms and the structures that create this to some extent that can sort of dispel its power over you. So you might accept it and know that you live in a world in which these things work and they're real, but you can say, Oh, well, it's only this, or it's because of that, and little bits to do with that type of thinking give you potentially more freedom and space to shape your own sense of existence as well, which I think is only helpful. It doesn't necessarily change anything material and practical, but it gives you insights and recognition of what's around you, which I think can be an empowering thing to some extent.

I think that's absolutely true, and I would add to that, the thing that I didn't mention, because I don't think it's applicable for everyone, because it depends on what your ambitions are in life, but if you do ever have ambitions to take on leadership roles and organizations, you have to understand the only way you're going to learn how to do be good at it yourself is if you watch and understand the dynamics that are affecting the people that are leading you right now and with with the all the best intentions of reading and studying and listening to meaningful materials and content online, your lived situations at work will be your catalog, if you like, when you become a leader. So the things I drew on as a leader were the things I had experienced as a member of a team. And I think it's super important to be able to empathize with your leadership or your management and understand but also help challenge them, because those will be the building blocks of how you behave when you become a leader.

Yeah, yeah. So it goes back to that learning from a future that mindful in the you know, being aware, use of that term, being, you know, mindful of what happens around you, of the things that influence and exist around you, and what that does to you, and learning to navigate in that environment and to be intentional in what you do, so that as you grow as a leader, you can behave in a way that you're happy with, to some extent, that achieves your goals, but is congruent with who you are as well.

Yeah, and that's, that's the difference, right? When you get to a leadership position, do you if you can, if you can be comfortable with the decisions you're making because you've understood what's impacting or influencing you to behave in a certain way, then you're going to be a lot happier. And I think, you know, you mentioned the emperor's new clothes, which is just, I cannot tell you how much that is making me laugh and smile inside from my personal experiences, because the way I always used to talk about it was when I was little, and lots of us were little, we used to say why all of us were little. At some point, we used to say, why, why. But why? And there is a period that children go through where they say it like 4 billion times, right? So you'll be like, but why is the sky blue? And then you'll get a scientific explanation. You'll be like, but why does that happen? Right? You can keep going forever, and as a child, you're trying to unpick what's the primary driver, right? What? But what's all this pinned on? How is knowledge built? Cool. What am I trying to understand the basics of and for me, that's where my obsession, and I would call it an obsession with understanding power and influence in organizations and teams came from. Because I would sit in organizations that I cared deeply about, and I'd be like, but why are people behaving this? Why are they doing this? This makes no sense to me. So trying to keep asking questions of people that would help me understand what was going on. And for me, that was where I began to understand power as a slightly more complicated thing than a simple he's the boss, and he said so. And and I started to understand the different influences that were shaping people's choices. And for me, that's how I started to understand power, that it wasn't just this one thing that people had, but that there were things that were making people do things, and there's lots of other forces at stake. And anyone who's worked in things like stakeholder management or communications will understand all that. So yeah, so I think it's a great topic. So get people thinking the future.

Yeah. And when you when you were in that early stage and started to think about power, did you think about it as just, you know, ill defined or undefinable thing that some people had, or did you even then see that there were different factors that contributed to it? And what was that process that you went through like? And what did it feel like when you realized that actually maybe we can find some building blocks or different ways to think about what gives people powerful

Oh, James. Oh, James, you're so kind to me, the implication that there was, in any way, a structured approach to thinking about this versus an utterly self centered It's so lovely. So I'll tell you what. I'll tell you where I first really became exposed to it. I worked in an organization, and I was really angry about the way something was done, and I had a better way of doing it, and I couldn't understand why it wasn't being done. I was like, There's intelligent people. Why are they not doing it the way that that I want it done? And so I set about trying to understand what was going on, quite literally, because I wanted to change the way it was done, right? It's as simple as that. It was utterly selfish, and as I became fortunate, it was a topic I knew quite a lot about. So I would talk to people, and at the time, I was quite, I don't know direct, let's go with direct. Okay? And so I would talk to lots of people, and I'd be asking them, why. And I literally would say to people, Look, I understand we do it this way, but can you give me a reason why we don't do it this way, which, of course, is not how you ask any question in any organization, because everyone looks at you, no, but also, they also look at you and go, well. But you're asking me why we don't do that? Well, I can give you 22 other ways we don't do it. Do you want me to go through why we don't do any of those? Either it's the naivety of being new to something, right? When you're new to an I never worked for an organization that size before, and when you're new to it, you're like, but just, let's do it, and you don't understand the barriers. And that became a thing for me, right? And so for me at the time, power was quite simply, there was a thing I wanted to happen, and someone other than me needed to make it do something, to let it happen, and they weren't doing that. So to me, at that point, power was nothing more complicated than I want I can't have, yes,

the ability to exert and change and drive and all that stuff. So that's yeah, no, no, that's exactly it. And did you, did you discover why these other people had that, or what gave them the, you know, the building blocks that had that power? I mean, is this a time to start to maybe introduce French and Raven and some ways that we can think about,

well, I think, I think the simplest place to start is probably with Jeffrey pfeffer's definition, and the way he talks about, okay, great. And then we'll move on to French Raven, because I think they are very good signposting ideas that helped would kind of illustrate how I started learning about it, because it's where I went to power, isn't it? It's a Yeah, it is. And we had a conversation listeners, you will want, probably want to know this, James, I had a conversation about how much we would talk about in this episode,

because we decided we'd do multiple episodes, basically, is what happened. Yeah, because there

are, there are lots of different very complex ways of thinking about power, but we, and we want to bring those to you, but we think it's really most sensible to start at the beginning. And James and I thought the most sensible way was to explain how I sort of learned a bit about power. So what Jeffrey Pfeffer says, and Jeffrey Jeffrey, Jeffrey my mate, Jeffrey Pfeffer, not my mate, but a guy who writes prolifically on power, he tends to focus very much on a pragmatic corporate approach to power, I would say. And he also talks very much about sort of individuals holding power right within organizations, and his, his, most of his research is about how people can gain and access power. So people want

that, don't they? I mean, like you did at your time, you wanted to get your stuff done. I nearly used to know the word there, but you want to get stuff done, and you need some power to do that. So how do we do that? Well, that's, that's like a human desire and a human need. But lots of us have. So how do we do that? How do we think about that, exactly?

And I think that's why it's really important that we start there, because I think that's the question that people think they're coming to ask. When they ask, isn't it right if

we get power? But the worst thing is, it's like a reverse gateway drug, because once you realize it and start up picking it, then you realize it's built on something else, and then you start unpicking it. It's like the Pandora's box. But he there's a there's a piece of research that he and his research partner wrote, and in it, they describe power as simply the ability to get things done the way one wants them to be done. That's it. And I quite like that, because I'll be honest, I think that's pretty accurate. And you

know what like? I think if you look at like the development of children, which isn't an area that we focus on at all, and I know hardly anything about my sense is that we all kind of have this in our life, and we are the focus of our universes. And wouldn't it be just nice if we could control the whole thing all around us? And some people never quite grow out of that, but, but that's kind of like an innate thing. It takes time for us to realize that we aren't the masters of everything around us and the whole universe and all of that. And that's that's sort of like a gateway into our understanding of power. And then we can't shape our entire rocks. And suddenly there are other people who are independent or free will or other rules of nature that define our inability to do things. If I wanted to jump, you know, 500 feet out of a window. I mean, I couldn't actually do that because of all the other factors that influence my existence. And it's those other factors that contribute to power in our existences,

yeah, and, and the research he does looks very heavily at some very simple, well, they're not simple, but very, very sensible life lessons that he believes or he purports that people need to understand in order to achieve a traditional place of power in an organization. And he talks about things like the reality of politics versus performance so trying to address the issue that less senior members of staff think that the way to get promoted is to be the best performer, which is not the reality. Is that politics and being in the right position and having the political skill to engage with different dose of luck of those things, yeah, and all of those things. But Well, his arguments, particularly, what can you do versus Yeah, but yes, and a good old dose of luck. But he also talks about how our beliefs that we come into the workplace with about things like the world is a just place don't help us understand power, right? Cynical here, Jane, is that what's going to

happen? Well, I mean, the world isn't a just place, right, particularly not organ. And also the world is not your organization. No, you're right. And so, so, from his perspective, power is, you know, as straightforward as accessing the positions of influence at the top of the organization, right? And I think that's helpful, because I do think people come into organizations, and I went into an organization, and you probably, maybe not you're a little bit smarter than me. But when people come into organizations thinking that the the mantra they've been told a lot of them, which is, work, hard, perform well, be good at your job and you'll get promoted, is true, and I think you and I both know, but it's not even a merit, like I it's not even a meritocracy, right? It's doing it's thinking that you'll get the job above you by doing your own job well, versus understanding that the job above you is a different job, right? Okay, as well. And you're right. There's also the slightly confusing conversation about meritocracy, which is the implication that if we just are the best person for the job, we'll get it, whereas, you know, it ignores the very human nature of teams and individuals. Where you you want to people want to promote people who they want to work with because they're bringing something different to the team, or because they think that they'll gel well, or because they have demonstrated political skill to get in front of the CEO and you can't, yeah, or

if I just want to reward them, because they think they're nice, or, you know, you're, you're an embodiment of a cool person, so you should get a job, because I'm in awe of your personness.

Yeah, and so, and the, I guess the point is, there's loads of reasons that it happens, but acquiring, you know, acquiring power, if we're going to talk about power, is something you acquire or have, is about presenting yourself in a way that demonstrates or makes people think you will be a good person to be in that position. And that is not the same as doing your job really, really well and being a high performer, particularly since we already know that management skills and leadership skills are very different from the technical skills that people have when they're Yeah, project manager, administrator or realtors, engineers or engineers. Yeah. So, yeah. So I guess, I guess that's why. I quite like starting at that very, not simplistic, but very straightforward place of we need to get to the bottom of what people are making assumptions about about the people who have got into certain positions of power, right? And it's not that they were brilliant administrators and worked their way up step by step by being the best at each job. Before we go

on, can you share about definition again, and then we'll jump on to look at some. Yeah, I can.

So he's Look, I don't, I don't necessarily agree with a lot of what he writes, but I think his writing is really accessible and really thought provoking, and I read as much of his stuff that makes me angry in a good way, like makes me want to argue it. So I would. He's written a book called power, actually, and the quote he uses in some of his early research is, power is simply the ability to get things done the way one wants them to be done. Yeah, that's it. And I think, I think that's helpful. But you and I both know a little bit about French and Raven spaces of power. And we thought that that takes this basic idea of power being something you have, and adds in the not the complication, but adds in the detail around, why do you have that power? And is it just positional, or are there other ways to get it?

Yeah, so it's a little bit more granular, isn't it? It's saying that somebody has the ability to do things in a certain way, or to get things happening in the way that they want to happen. Why? Why is that the case? What are some of those building blocks that might give them that ability? Is that fair? Is that what you kind of think we're doing?

implicit. Yeah, I think, I think they imply, by by what they present as power. That power is something you get because of a something you have. Rather than just saying you have it, it's saying you've got something so now you've got power. And I think the easiest way to explain it is to just literally list them out and then explain a little bit about them. Is that, well, depends on the research you reading. But I'm going to very brief, briefly, uh, read you the six that right. Okay, cool. Listed out there. The original list was five, but they added a six. And so the first one is called legitimate power. And this is the extent to which an individual has internalized the belief that certain people have the right to command, right? Okay? And what type of people might have that right to command, where the easiest

sense legitimate is you're a manager and your four employees understand that you're and accept that you're their manager, right? So somebody has invested you, or something has created power in you from and everyone, and everyone's accepting that's the structure, right? So

government, it could be your work. It could be your local community club, yeah, but there's some sort of vesting of power within you, and the way

that shows up, right? Is that you answer an email that you might not answer to someone else because that person's your manager, right? Right? Yeah, you're not doing it because you think it's the right thing to do. You're not doing it because you think it's a clever thing to do. You're doing it because the person who's asked you is the person that you have agreed is your manager and is in command of your team. Yeah.

And so that agreement, like everybody kind of agrees that this person has a bit more power, is that? Yeah? And I want

people to remember that, because we're going to come back to it in a future episode. But that legitimate power is a really, very simple at its simplest, it's the one that you know someone's senior, and they're your manager, so they've got legitimate power over you. And you respond to it, and you accept that your manager,

yeah, yeah. And we see examples about all around the world, don't we, so, I mean, everyone's had a boss at some point. But also maybe you'll go into, you know, maybe you're going into an airport, and certainly a pilot's got power in the plane. Or in these different places where we live in there are different people with legitimate power all around us. So we're quite used to that. Yeah,

totally. And I think, you know, the reality is that as leaders, sometimes we have to use our legitimate power. Sometimes we don't have time to be able to say and explain and demonstrate and convince. We just have to say this needs to be done. Yeah? I think for a reason, isn't it? I mean, that's Yeah, and

I think, I think it's a really interesting one, because I think time has changed it massively. I think if you went back 20 years, everyone accepted legitimate power and just did what they were told, largely, whereas I think now there is a move towards much more consensus and consensual management by wanting everyone to agree and support the way forward. And I think managers and leaders generally like to rely on their legitimate power less. Yeah, yeah.

I think that's fair, and I think that's what I think. I think that's another conversation for another conversation for another episode, but it's linked to broader social trends and things like that

as well. Well. I mean, James, if we didn't have a video on between us right now looking at each other to stop us from going on to all the other topics that are linked to this, because it's so central, right? So that's legitimate. Power, and then I'm just gonna, I'm gonna try and quickly go through some of the easier to understand. So reward power. So as simple as the more senior I am, chances are, the more I can reward you for your performance. So it's like a carrot, right? You can give me a carrot, and then I'll be happy. I mean,

at its you don't like carrots given to my dog. So reward power at its simplest is you will do a task because you think you're going to be rewarded for it, right? You might get a higher performance measure, or you might get a bonus, or you might get better work next time you're gonna get something,

or you might like, yeah, you know, not have to work overtime, or whatever it is, or you might

exactly, or you might like me, if go back to that story I was telling earlier, I did it because I wanted in on the project that was going to change things right in the room. Where it happens is that what you're saying that is literally, that is literally my life so, but so I would the power that I saw from my head of department was that he could have me in the room. So for me, he was all. He was far more powerful than CEO. See, I didn't care. I cared about my head of departments power, because he was the one who could say yay or nay to me being in

the room. Yeah, and that was the reward you were after. Yeah, exactly. So that's reward power, legitimate. We've done legitimate. We've done reward where we're going,

Yes, we're going on to coercive power, coercion. Tell me about coercion. Nothing more complicated than you can punish. So just like you can reward, you can punish. So if you are in a position where you can punish me for non compliance, yeah, and you have coercive power,

yeah? And that can be legitimate or illegitimate to some extent. Is that fair? I mean, I guess, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, also I think, I think

the the challenge is it can't be legitimate coercive power, because you may not be giving that person. The reason you would act under legitimate power is because you accept that person as your manager, and they have that power to do that. If someone is forcing you by nature, you can't be except, do you see what I mean, yeah, it is the ability to punish so, I mean, you probably can, but I think it's an unlikely scenario. I think, I think the most likely scenario is that it's the systems through which you would get punished for your lack of compliance. Yeah. So think, think about, you know, docking stars, or docking putting a mark on your record for being late, or anything else. Yes. So all of that, I have the power to mark you down. So there's the first three. The next one I'm going to go on to is expert power. And expert power is, quite simply, knowledge that another person needs. And do you know who've got loads of expert power in organizations? Who's got it? I'd say it probably have loads of expert power.

So there's two or three people that have massive amounts of power in organizations, and they wouldn't show up on an organizational structure. They wouldn't show up in Jeffrey pfeffer's idea of what like seniority is. They wouldn't show up in legitimate power. But the guy who decides who gets a new laptop, or the guy who decides how they get information about getting set up on the new system? Yeah, those guys have power, right? The guys that know how to but so the other, the other people that quite commonly have it are accounts, yeah, so how do you get a new person on the as it should be, as

it should be, absolutely, but so. So basically, information expert power is people who know stuff that you don't, but you need to get the job done. Yeah, and what they can resolve

issues, and through that, they can affect things. I mean, back to your definition of power. It's about making stuff happen in whatever you want. And they've got expert power of it shapes for way things happen and what happens, I

guess or not, letting things happen. Well, yes, exactly. Wow, yeah. So, so think about secretaries, personal assistants, executive assistants, gatekeepers. Quite often they get referred to, right? I know where the boss is, but I'm not going to tell you. I know what the plan is for rolling out the change project, but I'm not going to tell you Yes,

yes, yes, yes. And so diary looks like, but I'm not going to tell you that kind of thing, yeah. And in some cases, that

would also be called informational power. So that's the fifth one. But originally they talked about it all within one, because fundamentally, I think they're quite similar. They're both. I have something that I can take away with me from the organization, right? And I think that's really power. So one of. Things that I think is really interesting about expert and informational power, is that legitimate power? Power generally leaves when you leave the organization, right? Yeah, so you walk away from the organization, and you can't take that with you, but if you have job title, and then it's gone effectively, yeah? And there's you're

not managing anyone. So there's no one to have power. And this is one of the reasons that why both informational and expert power can be incredibly scary for senior leadership. Because if someone either knows how to do something that no one else in the organization does like it, or if someone has information that they don't want them to know, like they know all the secret workings of the CEO's office. Yeah, then that's scary for the organization. That's really threatening, you know,

the customer lists and all that kind of business. I guess that's why we have non compete clauses, to some extent, is because of the power that employees have, to some extent. So I think if anyone's ever seen Jerry Maguire

in the first poor 15 minutes of Jeremiah, is it 20 minutes he he is an athlete agent, and he does a big speech, and he goes about how he's going to do it all differently, and then there's this massive race to try and phone all the clients to let him know he's leaving against the organization, and to lock all his files so he Can't get to their phone numbers and all of that. And all of that stuff, right? And that is a massive combination of an organization responding to someone removing their expert and their informational power, right? So his client list is on his Rolodex, yeah, and yeah. So, so I think expert and informational power are great examples of where people in positions that don't have power or don't have traditional power, can build that informational power, build the expert power, and they will become more important to the organization, and that becomes more powerful. And

so they've got more about control. So so we've talked about legitimate power, we've talked about reward, we've talked about coercive power, we've talked about expert power, and we've talked about informational power. What does that leave us with? Then I think we've got one left that leaves us with one. Okay, what's that one? One? So the last one is referent power, okay, okay. Reference the at its simplest, its power of personality. James, it is like the way bit of a charmer or something. Is this, like social influence? You

do it because you want to do it for them. So if you think about, I want to be in your game, yeah, totally. So go back to what Pfeffer said, right? It's the ability to get things done the way you want them done, right? Yeah. Referent power is you don't rely on your position or reward or punishment. They do it because they want to do it for you individually, and not for your job. Yeah.

So you turn people into people pleasers, or something like that. Like it a sort of cynical way of describing it. You know, people want to please you. Is that what we've got going on here? Yeah? Yeah. I guess at its most toxic, it could be that, I think I

was trying to cut through and make it fairly explicit. I don't know that it needs to be quite that explicit, but I guess at one end of that scale, it's kind of what it is people want to Yeah. I

think it depends if you do it deliberately or not. So I think what people find difficult to explain sometimes is why people are really good. Some people really struggle with why is my colleague getting everything done for them? And I am not right, and it can be very uncomfortable to realize it's quite simply, because other people like doing things for them.

Yeah, yeah. And of course, this stuff is all like, intertwined, right? So, I mean, if you think about reward power, maybe they like doing something for somebody because that person's nice to them and buys them a cup of tea and says, Oh, I like the way that you're being happy today. Isn't that good? And there's a little micro reward in there. So all this stuff kind of intertwines and and it's sort of complicated by our social connections as well as well. Is that a fair

reflection? Yeah, I think, I think that the way that it's useful, I think that's absolutely fair. And I think the way that this idea of six bases is useful is is very specifically in the way that you manage or lead, and not relying on certain bases of power. So you might have legitimate power. But if you constantly rely on it and don't tap into some referent power, some expert power, some reward power, sometimes that legitimate power will become wearing on your team. Because if you constantly say, Because I said so, rather than sometimes, oh, because you can see I'm the expert in this, and actually you trust that I'm going to do the right thing, or that you can see that you might just want to do it for me. Because actually, as long as being your boss, I'm you quite like, working with me, and you want to make my life easier, yeah, or on Friday morning, or whatever it is, yeah, or whatever it was

right, like, or even, I'll give you a slap on the back for doing it, and I appreciate it. Yeah? And I think, I think that's where it becomes useful, right? It becomes useful by thinking about the different reasons people will do things for you and with you and help you, and thinking about not becoming too reliant on any one of those. So if you are always the carrot or always the stick or always the I am the manager, so just do it, you are going to struggle, right? I think you're going to struggle to build a decent trusting relationship. And I think you don't have to be an expert in everything, but I think sometimes having a level of expertise or sharing power with people who have expertise in your team is a great way to reinforce those relationships. So one of the things that I've seen that's really powerful is where senior leaders have deferred to experts in the room, and what they what they do by that is show their own power, right? Yeah, I reward and it works, brilliant. Yeah. And it also creates real clarity for the rest of the team, right? Because you're saying there is power in this room, in this person's knowledge, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna pass that on. I'm gonna give him the shell, as they would say in Lord of flies, yes, yes.

Nice. And so, so if we, if we think about to what we've got, we've got, we've got these six forms of power here. So we've talked about sort of informational power and the things we know. We talked about the expert power and our sort of capabilities. We've talked about this referent power and our sort of social the social power, I guess, to some extent that we have. We've talked about legitimate power deriving from our power invested in us by the organization or other, you know, bodies that we're part of, and we've talked about reward, and we've talked about coercion and coercive power. Do you think it's, it's, it's something that that people can benefit from, and stepping back and reflecting on, you know, whatever powers but they have, you know, I mean, is there any benefit? And if you're in an organization, saying, Oh, well, okay, who am I? What am I in this organization? Which of these things do I have? Which of these things do I not have? Is that a helpful exercise? Or is that unhelpful? Or what do you think?

I think it's super helpful. I think there's lots loads of stuff people can do with this stuff. So if you are not a leader or manager at the moment, I think one look around at who's being listened to and try and understand what bases they're pulling on. Two, understand where you where you do or don't, have the ability to pull on your own resources within these different types of bases. And I think that helps you start to think about your own I think, you know, I you, and I often talk about labor and employment and work as an exchange, right, and exchange between an organization and a person. And I think the reality is, yeah, absolutely. And so you're exchanging, you know, your labor for pay, etc. And I think if you see that, yeah, and I, for me, that's where the phrase bases comes from. Power Base, right? You're building your base so that when you enter into that conversation with your organization again, you are valuable, and you are more able to have negotiating tools, right? And presumably,

that's with all the stakeholders that you interact with in the organization or outside of it. Yeah, I think

so. I just, I just think it's helpful, but I also equally think it's, I wish I'd learned about this stuff earlier, because I think I wielded some of my power badly when I was a very junior member of staff. So what I didn't understand was that the level of expert knowledge I had on a very, very niche subject happened to be incredibly important to the organization, and I used it to bulldoze people, rather than trying to bring them with me. And so it got done, but I never really got that. For a long time, I didn't really get that. I wasn't I couldn't understand why I wasn't popular, like I got great write ups, I got promoted. All of these things happened, but people weren't that positive about the work until I started to put the back work the back the back work. That's not the phrase, is it? The physical labor into demonstrating why I thought it was so important and why, and building my referent power, right, getting people to understand this mattered to me because I cared about things that were important to them too. Yeah, yeah, and those connections and all of that. Okay, so I think that's super important.

And then, then, if you're maybe, if you're a leader in an organization, or managing a team in an organization, and you're learning about this, what can you do to make sure that you're kind of aware of it and mindful of it, but maybe you don't fall into that trap of overusing the power of it. You have, is there anything to be aware of in there? I mean, what happens if you overuse some of these powers?

I'm going to deviate between, differentiate between what the research says, in my own personal opinion right here, because, you know, there is without question. There is some good research around leaders. That have the best relationships or the best support from their followers or team, or however you want to call them, where they don't become overly reliant on their legitimate or their coercive or their reward power on their own right, that that can, that can not help them to build trust. So you know, trying to think about that and not become too reliant. If you find yourself saying because I said so too much, you're probably getting the job wrong. And if you find yourself constant, constantly having to bring in cookies every Friday, not because you want to, but because it's the only way people get any work done on a Friday, that's probably not a good sign. But um, for me, the big thing, and this is from from me personally, the big thing that I would encourage leaders to do is to think about how they can ensure that that power differential between them and their team members is more equitable, right. And what I mean by that is either helping their team members build their own expert or informational power, referent power, or even did indeed legitimate by, you know, giving them specific responsibilities, or by offsetting some of their own so of saying, you know, what I can, you know, I can punish you in inverted commas, or I can do stress, but we're not going to do that. We're only going to work on a positive way, or whatever it is, find ways to just dissolve a little bit of it. Because my my belief is, is that where that dynamic becomes too unbalanced, or where people feel they are too much in a deficient place that becomes uncomfortable for a team? I think so.

I was gonna ask if there's like a big power imbalance between people can what does that do to their their sort of relationship? Does it? Does it necessarily affect somebody's relationship with a big power imbalance, or need it or, well,

it's interesting, isn't it? It doesn't necessarily, because a lot of it comes down to, I, well, I believe a lot of it comes down to how people feel about that, which sounds really wishy washy, but effectively like there are people who have high levels of power imbalance but are totally happy with it, because that is what and it goes back to that exchange conversation about organization. This is the job I want to do. My boss is way more senior than me, has total power over me and makes me feel safe and is really clear about what I want to do, great, fine, doesn't, doesn't necessarily follow that that imbalance will mean an unproductive team. But I think in most organizations that we work alongside, around knowledge work and around work where you have people that are not multiple levels apart, I think it can be toxic. I think it can be horrifically toxic. I mean, you and I have talked about this before, James, but I think we've both seen situations where people use power, their bases of power, inappropriately, to get things done. And if it happens too often, you lose respect, you lose complicity of management, you lose all your legitimate power because people no longer see you as the appropriate person to run the team at its worst.

And you break, break down your sort of social structures that keep people happy and psychologically safe and well within organizations, and a lot of that stuff can can be eroded as well. Yeah, all right. Well, it feels like we've probably covered a bit of an introduction to power there. So we talked a little bit about what power is, why it matters. We've shared some views on some of the base of power and some other things, but give people power as individuals, on their own or as part of larger organizations, and we've touched a little bit on why some of this information is helpful and what you can kind of deal with it if you're an individual in an organization, or if you're a manager in an organization, and some ways that you can can look to garner power, or look to use power well within your organization. So hopefully that served as a an introduction to power, which was really our aim here, as we said at the beginning. It's a huge and fascinating subject, and I think we'll come back to it. Jane, what do you think? Do you want to do you want to come back after that conversation and do another one? Where do you want to go? What do

you think? I guess I will leave that to our listeners. They've enjoyed this, and they're keen to hear more then I think definitely we I think you and I would both like to explore a conversation about things like the power of normalization, structural power and even maybe disciplinary power, which are all really interesting ways that power can show up in organizations.

Great, cool, all right, well, let's leave it on a cliffhanger, and we'll see what happens and see what we end up doing next. But I guess for now, it's just time for us to say goodbye. So it's goodbye from me and it's goodbye from me. Hi everyone. This is James. Thank you very much for listening to that podcast, and please do share it and review it if you enjoyed it. And don't forget you can learn more about our coaching, workshops, courses and development programs on our website. That's www, dot World of work.io, again, www, dot World of work.io,