E097: Boundaries in Life and Work

now on to this episode.

Hello. It's James, and this is Jane, and here we are again with another episode of a world of a world of work podcast. What are we speaking about today? Jane,

well, today we are talking to someone we actually did a little video with at the beginning of lockdown. Dr, Jane booth, and we're going to be talking all about boundaries. Oh,

that's exciting. I'm looking forward to this conversation. I think boundaries are fascinating things. I think that boundaries in our relationships with others affects our personal relationships as well as our work relationships. So I think there's a lot of interesting stuff to come out of this conversation. Yeah,

I definitely think, given the world, especially we're recording it, for those of you who don't know, in 2020 during the COVID crisis, and I think given everything's changing in lots of people's wealth at the moment, I think boundaries is a really pertinent conversation to be having great let's get into the conversation.

Okay, so we're in the main body of our podcast conversation today, and we're speaking to Jane booth, and we're going to be exploring concept of boundaries, particularly with a view to understanding boundaries in the workplace. Before we get into that though, Jane, could you introduce yourself to the guests and say a little bit about yourself and your background and what you're working on. Yeah,

sure, hello, Jane and James and anybody else who's listening. I'm Jane. I well, I believe that great people make amazing things happen, and that is kind of the heart of everything I do, and really drives my work life, my and probably kind of my own life as well, in terms of, you know, having a real faith in people. And my I suppose my business is built around leadership and supporting people to chase their own dreams. And, yeah, and my job title, this is a big dilemma, and I started working for myself, which I have done for the last four years, what to call myself, because I didn't really feel like a director or a chief exec, so I decided on chaser of dreams, which kind of, yeah, it starts interesting. People either love it and kind of want to know more, or they're like, No, you're definitely not the person for me. So it's a good conversation starter, yeah. So that's my that's a brief intro, I guess, into into me and some of the things that I'm passionate

about. That's great. It gives a real insight into into you through those names, if we start off, and as I said, we're going to be speaking about boundaries as an idea, if we just start with a real basics. What are boundaries when we talk about our relationships with

people so well, it feels like a logical place to start, but it's actually a really I find it really interesting question, because there's lots of different definitions. And I think if you look at dictionary definition. It talks about boundaries being real or imagined lines that mark the edge of something or the limit of something. And that's kind of, I suppose, a dictionary definition. But if you explore a little bit further, you know, I really love this idea that boundaries are sort of limits that you set on how you allow others to treat you, but also they define how you want to be treated by others and how you kind of mark, you know, sort of draw lines between what's okay and what's not okay. And sometimes, I think it's really important as that idea that a boundary is is in your mind, knowing that there is something in the world that you won't accept and you won't tolerate, and how you sort of become more aware of that and understand that there are, yeah, there are different limits on on what you like, what you don't like, how you see the world. So

with that, why are these boundaries important? I guess, do boundaries give us certainty? Do they give us control? What what's the benefit to us of having boundaries for ourselves, and what are the benefits for our relationships with others?

I mean, there's a whole host of sort of angles we could go down in terms of answering that, that that question, I think the maybe, the real, maybe a sort of simple starting place, is to say that, you know, it kind of defines our own personal space and almost where we start and stop, and where other people start and stop, if that sort of makes sense. But I've got in my mind, maybe an analogy which might help a little bit in terms of and I think I've used this before in various places, but thinking about deer fences, living in Scotland and spending a lot of time out on the mountains and up in the hills, you come across lots of deer fences, and I suppose there's two way of looking at those. They're either about keeping deer out and stopping them going into a certain area, or if you flip that, the other way of looking at it is to say, actually, they're protecting what's inside those boundaries. So they're keeping those and usually it's native trees and, you know, things that need a bit of help and nurture. And saving from Hungry deers munching the buds off them. And I think that that applies to kind of people as well, in terms of, you know, if we don't have boundaries in our lives, whether that be physical boundaries, you know, the walls of our house, protecting us from the elements and or other sorts of things, or, you know, more psychological or emotional boundaries, kind of protecting us from, you know, the things that we or keeping safe the things we love, but also protecting us in a way, from things that feel a bit challenging or that actually just don't fit with our own values and things that really, really matter to us, whether that be, you know, somebody else's behavior, or actually, even down to things like, you know, actually, what will you accept in the world? Is it okay for people to, you know, be a bit horrible to you? Or are you actually going to stand up for what you believe in and say, Do you know what I don't like that? That's not for me. Yeah. And I guess following on from that,

are boundaries things that we sort of have in relation to all aspects of our lives, or are there certain areas of our lives where we tend to benefit more from having boundaries?

For me, they exist everywhere. And I think what I'm learning I've been really interested in this over the past couple of years and and what's become almost more prevalent in my thinking over the last few months is around like, the dynamic nature of boundaries that we set ourselves. So maybe thinking about some of the things that might have happened over lockdown and people, sort of, you know, no longer going into their work spaces, and we've been working at home, actually, you know, in terms of trying to put some you know, boundaries in place for, you know, time boundaries. So how many hours a day you working, you know which areas in your home are actually going to be exclusively for work? Or, you know, can you have an area in your home which you know actually it's that's play time, that's play area. So you can kind of find ways of separating out you as a in your work persona and role into you know you as coming home from work, whereas, you know, because you're not going out to an office, then actually it becomes much harder to separate out the sort of different areas of your life. So yeah, I think they pepper everywhere. And you know, even social, you know, social relationships and things in terms of, you know, thinking about your friendships, and you know, you most of us, will have, maybe, you know, you know, probably quite a small number of really close friends who probably know you warts and all, and you know, you can phone them up at four o'clock in the morning in tears if you're struggling. But equally, there'll be other people in your life who perhaps aren't quite so close, and you sort of create almost those sometimes unconscious boundaries to say, actually, actually, I don't want to share that with them. Or this type of relationship is an acquaintance type relationship, or a fun type relationship where there might be other people who it's there's something more meaningful, or, you know, you're able to have those really tricky conversations to say, God, I know, you know, I don't know what I'm doing. Can you help sort of thing,

yeah, and it's interesting, you touched on the Coronavirus a few minutes ago, and the impact is having us on us in work, and it feels to me in my own personal experience, but it's also brought to light difference in individuals boundaries when it comes to things like contact and interaction and those sorts of things as well. So it's kind of disrupting our sense of what those boundaries are. To some extent, I think when, when you think about having these sort of boundaries and having clear boundaries, or, you know, clarity in our own boundaries, what sort of impact does that have on others when that boundary that we bring is mutually understood, or we have a sort of agreed boundary that everybody knows about, how does that affect our relationships

with people? I mean, a really simple answer is, I think, I believe it makes them more effective. I think the real challenges are, and this is perhaps a bit that maybe we're not so good at, is communicating those boundaries, perhaps like the example of physical space, particularly now, at the moment, with social distancing and things are probably quite a good example, because, you know, there are some of us in who are, maybe are struggling a little bit with this idea of how, how close is close, right? Two meters for some of us means do not come anywhere vaguely close to me and stay away beyond two meters at please, actually, whereas for other people, two meters as well, you know, meters Okay, and others, you know, actually, maybe, for whatever reason, don't have that same sense of boundaries and space. So I think in this world, it's, it's two things. It's firstly being aware that we each may have very different boundaries, but also finding ways in which we can have a conversation in a non confrontational way, often to say, actually, I'm not quite comfortable with that yet. So can we just find a way that works for both of us?

So we've talked a little bit now about the basics. Boundaries now thinking about how boundaries operate in the world of work, what? What sort of boundaries exist in our in our world when we're thinking about work? Wow. Another,

another good question with probably endless answers. I think, if I really maybe group them, I think, you know, we have sort of physical boundaries, which are probably relatively easy. So maybe in an office space, there's different people have different offices, so or you'll have your own desk, or you'll have your own space, or you'll have the kitchen space, or, you know, the space where different teams maybe tend to meet. So there's kind of quite physical, obvious boundaries, but within sort of other types of things. You know, there's emotional boundaries. There's also maybe some psychological boundaries and energetic boundaries. Those are sort of the four criteria, and maybe I can bring them to life through a couple of examples. So energetic boundaries, for example, you know, in a workplace, you can probably picture different people that you work with who are maybe enthusiastic and full of energy at different times of the day, or perhaps, you know somebody who needs a certain, I don't know, environment or level of motivation to actually come up with ideas. And maybe somebody needs noise, maybe somebody needs some music in the background, whereas other people need silence. So sort of it becomes sort of this complicated thing, invisible thing, sometimes that weaves its way through the workplace when you're trying to sort of work out, okay, I know this works for me. For example, I need to listen to music, but actually, my colleague over there, I know that they need that peace and quiet. And so how do you sort of work out ways of being able to provide what you need, but also being conscious of other people? And you know, maybe music is quite an easy one, because you can put your headphones in and you can, you know, think things through there, but interestingly, that often creates boundaries in its own way, because if you're sitting there with your earphones in listening to music. Potentially, you're missing out on some, some of the conversations that happen within that in a general hub of a of an office space, particularly if it's an open plan office space, and and also, people can perceive that as, Oh, they've got their headphones in. They don't want to be disturbed or, or maybe, you know, maybe something's going on and you know, they're just ignoring me. So almost something that's really simple in terms of trying to protect colleagues, or think about, you know, what works for you and what might not work for others. Almost those boundaries then come in in very different ways and manifest themselves and play them, play them out in different ways. And I think as well, maybe we either another example, perhaps in a meeting space where, you know, there's almost unspoken rules. So sometimes those can almost become like boundaries of, okay, right? That's a culture, and that's the way we do things. So actually, I can't, I can't go beyond that boundary, and I can't. Now's not the time for me to raise my hand or raise my voice and and actually make, you know, try and make my point, because actually, our culture says that that's not acceptable. But almost you're sitting there burning make to try to make a point, but you kind of can't find the right way of doing that. So I think you know this, and the more I sort of think and and explore this idea of boundaries, the more complicated and complex it becomes, and I sort of kind of see them everywhere. And, yeah, hopefully that gives you maybe a little bit of an insight into some of the things where I see they exist and and some of the challenges, yeah.

And I think, I think particularly in the examples you've just game gave it, makes me think I can understand how you see them everywhere, and I also it makes me think about their relationship with power and influence in the workplace, and how you are the challenges of maintaining your boundaries, where, where you may not be in such a strong position of influence in an organization, for example, and how much more challenging it might Be to to maintain your boundaries when things are being asked of you in an unbalanced relationship. For example,

yeah, and, and, I think that's where I see, you know, I think maybe in the early days of sort of looking into this idea of boundaries and thinking about, you know, I think I the idea was sparked really, from, you know, some of research I did around counseling and therapy, and how those sort of therapeutic relationships are really clearly bounded in terms of the therapist or the counselor or psychologist saying, actually, this is my role, this is what's acceptable, and this is what's not acceptable right up front. So really clearly providing those definite lines of the relationship, which then free that relationship up to be able to talk about and deal with some of those really challenging things that that you may talk about in in those sorts of relationships. And I kind of said, well, okay, well, how do we do that in coaching or sport or different types of relationships and and I think, as I've sort of started to think about it more, and maybe play is the wrong word, but, you know, experiment and. And look at it from my own perspective, I think it becomes very nuanced often in terms of, it's often not as clear as, this is what's important to me. This is what I will accept. This is what I won't accept. And that's it, full stop that applies in every situation. I think what you've highlighted there around that sort of, it's context driven. So I've almost, sort of, don't know if it's come quite full circle, but I often now, if I'm talking about talking to individuals, about trying to help them working with their boundaries, say, well actually, what are the what are almost your absolute non negotiables, the things that you know in any circumstance you just won't compromise because they're so important to you and so aligned with what you believe and and what you value that you're not willing to compromise those and I think if you're able to work out those things, then you almost, it's almost like a job description where you've got essential and desirable and you're able then to kind of go, do you know what in that scenario? I recognize that, okay, sometimes I'm just going to have to say yes, when the boss wants me to do something because, but almost, you know, there's that tension point where you kind of get, well, that's straying a bit too close to the thing that I really, really value, and don't want to, you know, don't want to give up, and actually, I won't accept those things. So, yeah, dynamic and and ever moving, but definitely linked to the context that

makes total sense. And in terms of when we get when you see people get this right, or when we get it right as individuals in the workplace, and our boundaries are, do are in the places they should be, to the in the ways they should be. What? Why? Why is that important? And what kind of impact does that have on us in our workplace? You know, does it? Does it change the way we're able to do our jobs? Or why does it matter so much that people get this right? I

think for me, it it perhaps, I don't know if it changes the way, but I think it enables us to be effective, effective as humans, first, almost in a in, I don't, yeah, in a strange kind of way, really, the one you talked about workplaces, and then kind of focusing on the human side. Human side of things, but I think it enables us to to really be comfortable and confident in what we know and who we are and and those relationships around us. So you're it's almost like knowing where we stand and also where communication is aligned with those boundaries. Because I think you can't have, you know, effective boundaries. Don't just rely on I know my boundary, and that's it full stop. It's about how you then communicate and build the conversations with the people around you. So I think in a workplace scenario, if you're able to firstly know yourself. So okay, this is me. This is what I stand for. This is what's important to me. I really understand my context, so I know kind of where I need that slight flexibility. But also then you have that sort of understanding of the people around you, how they work, what matters to them, what's important to them. Then you're, you know, those relationships then potentially become much more effective, because either you're not always treading on eggshells because you're uncertain of what you you know, what you can and can't ask, or you know how somebody might perceive you for acting in a certain way. You know, there's that openness of communication and conversation, and even to be able to say, Oh, you've pushed my boundary a little bit too far there, and being able to kind of use it in that conversation to, you know, ultimately, our whole world operates on relationships and and even at work, you know you rely often on, you know other people and you know people do business with, people they like, people they know. And if you can have that in a team ethos and in an organizational ethos, I really believe that it kind of helped us become more effective and in you know what we do and how we communicate.

It sounds like we've spoken a bit in there about things like expressing and agreeing and contracting of boundaries. To some extent it, it strikes me that, to some extent, talking about boundaries almost feels out of bounds to me, right? So it feels like my sort of cultural norm, or social norm is that having conversations about what my boundaries are just feels a little bit wrong or a little bit presumptuous or or as if I'd need to already be in a certain level of relationship with somebody for that conversation to not feel assumptive or intimidating or sort of unequal in terms of power. What are your thoughts about that? Yeah,

I think that's a really good observation. And I think maybe there's something in there about, you know, cultural, cultural norms and cultural kind of setups in terms of, you know, how we maybe, how we talk about the difficult things, or whether we do talk about the difficult things or not. And it's almost like the phrase the elephant in the room comes to mind. It's kind of, there are lots of things that we just, you know, we don't talk about those. And perhaps, you know, I've got in my mind a number of conversations I've been having this week. I've been involved in a festival called Creative bravery Festival, and there's been a lot of conversation about, you know, how you have those. Conversations. But what are the skills and what are the things that underpin our confidence and competent, competence and actually willingness to be able to kind of say, Oh, actually, do you know what? That doesn't sit quite right with me, and this is why, yeah, and I think for me that you know the idea of boundaries, starting with you, you know, I can't, I can't create a boundary if I don't know what's important to me. And you know that defense analogy, I don't know what I'm trying to keep safe inside, and also, you know, the things that are outside. So have to start with what I'm keeping safe. And if I can know that first and then appreciate that others might have that difference and be able to kind of approach it in a, you know, non judgmental way. Because often, I think it's it comes up in those pressured situations when we feel tension and maybe we feel under pressure, and perhaps that's when, you know, the things explode, whereas actually working backwards, if we could perhaps build a relationship built on, okay, this is how I operate. This is what I really value, and this is what I, you know, this is what you'll probably see me. And this is where I'm most effective. You know, I just wonder how that might shift the whole dynamic going forward. Yeah, it does feel like it'd be a great

conversation or aspect of our relationships to bring into the public as you were talking about, you brought up the fact that self awareness is part of this, and that we're all different, and all have our own requirements or desires or whatever we want to describe in terms of what our boundaries are. Do you think that boundaries are of different levels of importance to different people as well? Do you think there's you know, more flexibility for some people broadly in relation to boundaries, less in others. Or do you think we all have different boundaries that have different levels of importance and significance? I guess. What do you think our strength of boundary importance is for us as individuals?

Wow, another good question. I think that it can maybe comes back to what I was talking about, this idea of boundaries being dynamic and I think, you know, based on the idea that boundaries start with self and what's important to us, and if we acknowledge that all of us are unique and different and value different things and have different circumstance and, you know, have different experiences, then I think inevitably, boundaries will mean different things to different people, which perhaps adds to the complexity when you're talking around things. But I think at their at their heart, if all of us were able to identify the things that matter, and perhaps the most critical point is that you know the point at which tension comes in and we feel compromised so often if we're not aware of why we're feeling tension, and you, I mean, you probably will picture is that, you know the frustrations building, and you kind of just feel that horrible. It's maybe when somebody gets too close to you in a supermarket and yeah, and you don't dare say anything, but you're bobbling inside just wanting to turn around and say, will you back? And I think probably all of us in our lives at some point can, can associate with that feeling of tension, and, you know, wanting to turn around and just go back off, but we might not understand why. And I think having a better understanding of what's important to us, and therefore almost Where are, where is our limit, where is our level of tolerance? What will we accept and won't we accept? And acknowledging that that will be different for different people. So, you know, think about close friends and, you know, family. You probably, I don't know, you know, I'm thinking about my family and friends, actually my family. If they criticize me, that'll be it. I won't accept that different boundaries, yeah, but you know there's certain friends that you kind of know that they can you know that you really trust what they say, whereas actually them giving you a bit of feedback so that just just need you to know that. But actually, if somebody else that maybe didn't respect or actually they didn't respect you, it would be received at a very different level. I just think, having a wet an awareness of sort of that difference for all of us, perhaps just gives us a bit more of a an aware place to have conversations about, you know, the difficult things in life, which are never going to be easy. But perhaps if we can appreciate each other's perspective a little more, then they might be a little more productive rather than feeling quite judgmental. Yeah, and so you talked a little bit

there about the I guess, self awareness piece and noticing things like red flags to you as an individual, of where your boundaries might feel like they're being crossed, and some of the science for that, if you go through that process and start to identify areas where maybe you've got a boundary that could be impinged, or something that you'd like to think about maybe codifying, or think about more formulas boundary, what can you do as an individual to move that forward so that maybe you've got clarity of what your boundaries are and are mindful about them, and bring those to. Life in your relationships with others. Is there a way to go about that, or is it organic or unconscious? Or what do you think? No.

I mean, yeah, it can be either it can it could be organic. And, you know, you could just let it evolve and see what happens. But equally, there are more conscious steps you can take, if it's something that you want to work on and invest in. And you know, one of the maybe, maybe the sort of simple questions almost, which feel quite simple, but sometimes can be quite complex to answer. You know, what is really important to me right now? So using that dear fence analogy again, you know, what is it? What is in my fence that I really want to protect and keep safe, you know? So maybe some questions like, you know what is most important to you? And I think the word right now in that matter as well, because that recognizes that boundaries can be dynamic. You know what matters to you? What do you care about? Be that? You know big global issues like climate change, environment, you know, racism, sexism, all you know, what do you really care about that you won't you know that you don't like about the world, at least. But I think flipping that as well and thinking, how actually do you want to be treated by others? And I think the last sort of question, what will you not accept? Because sometimes it's often easier to sit down and go, actually, do you know what that's not acceptable to me, rather than think about the things that you actually do want. So I definitely think taking time just to sort of maybe work through those questions can help you, you know, help you identify earlier why you might be feeling that anger and tension because somebody's crossed your boundary without you realizing and it just gives you, builds you that awareness and and perhaps you can catch it earlier, rather than leaving it to explosion point.

Yeah, as we're speaking, there are a few things popped into my mind. I'll see if I can remember. One is that sometimes I find, as a personal reflection, that I'll enter a situation where I feel that potentially, my boundaries are sort of being impinged on, but that occasionally the cost of defending those boundaries in that instant could be detrimental to the sort of well being or feelings of other people that I'm with so so in that instance, sometimes I'll say, That's okay. I'll absorb this for now. Is that dangerous as a one off, or is that a logical thing to do? What do you think about

that? No, I mean to me, that feels like, you know, things like emotional intelligence are coming into play in terms of your own self awareness, but also awareness of how you interact with others. And I think that, you know, that's that's an important part of this, because, you know, we are relational. We are relational beings. And I think the moment we just the moment we forget that it's not just about us, and that, you know. So I think, you know, it is important, and you're making those conscious choices. And I think that's why I often talk about, you know, what are the thing you know, what those one or two things that you absolutely won't compromise because so, you know, if you've got those, and they're, you know, they're really critical, like, you know, and maybe some of the things around, you know, gender inequity, or the inequalities we see in the world now. But what? Okay, maybe you can just, maybe you could Goss over, you know, maybe this is an example. Maybe you can accept kind of one slightly sexist joke once, or maybe you can't. And I think knowing in your own mind at which point you step in and but also how you deal with that. So in some instances, it it would be appropriate to confront it there and then and say, Actually, do you know what? That doesn't sit comfortably with me because, but in other instances, it might not be in the moment. It might not be the right time. And that's why isn't you know, say that emotional intelligence of working out okay, when's the right time, but also, I suppose it's how much do you value that relationship in a work context, actually? How important is that relationship to you and being able to make those conscious choices and be aware of, you know, those sorts of things, and how strong do you feel in that moment about standing up for the things that you believe in? And

do you think you know, based on that sort of discussion we've just had that conversation, it feels like, as you've said before, boundaries are dynamic and in the moment, and more flexible guidance than than rigid in some ways. Do you think that as we go through our relationships with others and the testing of boundaries, but it's possible to signal minor displeasure with a potential boundary encroachment and not have a sort of large response to it. Or do you think that people often wait and something nibbles away at them and then then they snap at the end? How Do You Have you see that sort

of flexibility of response play through?

I think I see, you know, I think you see all of those and more, kind of almost a continuum in terms of how you see those boundaries being managed. And perhaps, you know, perhaps it's maybe about levels of awareness and comfort with the people around you. So, for example. Camp, if you know somebody really well. And maybe this happens in a workplace. You know somebody really well, you've worked with them for years, you're actually really clear about what makes each other tick. And perhaps you get to the point where you can kind of actually make a joke out of it, in a little bit of way, but, but no, it's serious to go, Well, hang on a sec. You're just pushing it a little bit farther. And you know, thinking about parents and children, how often do it? How often do you hear a parent describe their child as pushing the boundaries and those sorts of things? And perhaps, I perhaps it's about awareness as well. Because maybe the less aware you are of your boundaries, the more likely you are to get to that tension point of explosion. But perhaps the more you the more aware you are of Oh, actually, this is, oh, yeah, this is hitting a nerve here. I'm not quite Oh. I think it must be to do with that. Then you're able to make a decision in that moment, almost, you know you've got a choice. You could withdraw yourself out of that scenario right there and then, because you know that it's creeping a little bit that conversation is creeping a little bit close to your boundary of what you won't accept, and you're not quite ready to have that conversation. But equally, perhaps that's the moment in your mind that says, Okay, actually, I just need to, I need, you know, I need to say something here. I need to find a way of saying, oh, okay, I just need to pause that conversation for a second because, and being really comfortable in explaining why. And you know what the things that are that matter to you, and perhaps that's the bit that we're a little reluctant to do, you know, whether it be personal life or work life, because maybe we're a little bit afraid of that conflict and and rocking the boat almost.

I think that's a really, really interesting point, because I the way you're describing it, I can imagine, and indeed, have worked with people who have faced challenges where they've had their boundaries questioned, pushed, stroke attempted to be broken down by organizational cultures that expect more, more commitment in certain ways, and yet they've chosen to remove themselves from that boundary being probed, rather than, I guess, police or enforce or uphold that boundary or reinforce that boundary. And I wonder sometimes, quite often, when I when I sort of meet people in that scenario, they don't necessarily have the language or the confidence in the language they would use in order to manage that process of sort of policing or or, you know, enforcing their boundaries. And is that, do you when you do work with with boundaries? Is that a significant challenge for some people that that kind of speaking up and standing by it?

Yeah, it definitely, it is. I'm just thinking of some sort of maybe practical examples that particularly when I've maybe been managing teams, and, you know, perhaps, you know, really people who are really keen, enthusiastic, and they really want to, you know, and, and perhaps, and I know this is this, you know, this is maybe a little stereotyping, but generationally, we know that millennials are really passionate about, you know, they want, you know, things that really matter to them, and are really passionate about, you know, where they work, and those sorts of things. And often it's habit trying to have those just sort of gentle conversations that kind of get, yeah, I know that's important to you. I really get that that's important to you, where we are right now, in this organization, or this, this company, this is, this is the sort of reality of the status quo, and almost, you know, painting those things out so that you've got a choice here. And the choices at the moment, this isn't going to change from a, you know, management, whatever it is, point of view. And as a manager, you're responsible for kind of making those, implementing some of those decisions, and almost saying to the individual, look, you need to work out at what point it's no longer tolerable for you for this specific issue. And I've you know, I can record conversations with people saying, Look, maybe it's 5050, maybe you need all of those things. Maybe you need 50% of those things in place, 50% place, 50% of the time. And if, if it gets anywhere below that, actually, it's a point where you need to make that decision. Is this right for me, or do I stand up right now and how? How much do I value either my job or my friendship, or, you know, whatever it might be in that context. But for others that actually might reduce and say, Do you know what? I just need it 10% of the time, and I can, I can be flexible the rest of that time. Whereas, equally, there may be some people who say, You know what? It's 100% it's either all or nothing. And I'm sorry, but if you compromise, you know, if I can't be myself and bring my values into this, then it's just not for me. And I think there's something in there about negotiation, and, you know, recognizing that different people, whether that be generationally or individually, will have different levels of, different tolerance levels, almost on what they're prepared to, how much they're prepared to bend. And that, you know, that that's, that's a. Personal choice and something that nobody else but you can decide,

yeah, and I think certainly, speaking as someone who's a few years down the road in my career, I think, I think for me, that's that resonates very truly. There are some boundaries have got much, much clearer and tougher and thicker and stronger and really become anchors to my life. And some I've gone well actually, I recognize that whilst it would be nice, they've been breached before, and the world hasn't burnt down, and I've still coped with it. And I guess that just made me think a little bit about the world of 2020, and the way things are changing, but also generally about how you know your boundaries change as you go through life, I would imagine, depending on your priorities, depending on like, how you understand the world differently, and the teams you work in, and things like that. Do you think? Do you think people generally are aware when their boundaries change, or the I guess the reason I'm asking is I've had a situation where I've been really surprised by something that has turned out to be a really important boundary for me that I hadn't kind of noticed creeping into my life as an importance. And then I was like, Oh, wow. Actually, this, this is really important, and I do need to put some something in place here. Do you think that happens? And how can people keep an eye on on what's moving around in their lives, in terms of boundaries?

Yeah, do you know absolutely all every we all change. We change on a and probably more so now than ever. You know we're changing even probably on a daily basis, and so, so absolutely what I'm what's important to you and what matters to you right now, it comes to that question, and I think just the acceptance and recognition and making it conscious, almost to say, oh, okay, how are things now? And actually, what will I accept, and what's changed and and you know, it is definitely linked to self awareness, awareness of your own current situation. Know what matters to you, and just taking that time every so often to just refresh yourself. I suppose there will be things in your life that stay with you throughout your life, so they'll, you know, maybe there's one or two, like really strong underpinning values that actually one. You know, they'll always be there. But perhaps what changes is how they manifest themselves. And you know, what else is going on in your life as to how much headspace or time and energy you have to dedicate to those? Maybe family takes over. Maybe work takes over. Maybe, you know, caring responsibilities come into our lives as we get older. You know, things like that. So what maybe you were able to do when you're in a situation, perhaps where you had less responsibility, or, you know, I don't know it was a career, was everything, or those sorts of things, then, you know, we, we do definitely shift. And I think the key thing really is just to be regularly cognizant and almost keep coming back to those what's important to me right now? What am I prepared to accept right now? And maybe just using those words on the end of those questions just gives you that sense of okay, it's okay that it changes. But equally, do you know what? It's okay if things hit you as a surprise, because what you've done is recognize that. And everything we talk, you know, it makes it sound so easy and so logical. Yeah. Just work out what's important to you. Work out what you work out what you won't and will accept, and then the world will be a magic place. The reality is, it's much more evolutionary. And sometimes you need those moments and those jolts of Whoa. Didn't even really, didn't see that coming, but Oh, that's really tested me. And sometimes you need those moments just to kind of go, oh, wow, yeah, that is important. That does matter. And that's equally as important as you know, that logical, structured kind of thinking process.

Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Last question from me. We obviously have a lot of people who lead small organizations and teams, and I guess I'd be really interested to know, in a in sort of a practical sense, how you managers and leaders can support their teams and their the people around them to develop and and sort of manage their boundaries, given It's probably quite a new concept to certainly, some people that in the workplace, definitely,

and it, you know, it is a, I think it's probably quite a challenging area as well, given that it's so broad and changes so much. But I think maybe some practical things, you know, particularly for any sort of organizations who are going through big transitions at the moment, in terms of, you know, maybe staff working from home, maybe return to the office in different ways, those sorts of things, I think thinking about those, you know, physical boundaries, and just being really aware that some of your, you know, maybe some of your team who are not used to working at home might be finding it really difficult to switch off, or might be finding it really difficult to, you know, draw that. Line between when I'm at home when I'm at work, you know, basic things like, how do you communicate? So for me, for example, I work for myself, I'm quite happy on a Sunday afternoon to be, you know, returning emails and because that's actually a quiet time where I can think. Now, what I don't expect is other people to read them and respond back to me. But in an organization, perhaps it's just being really clear about communicating with each other and just making it known that, look, if I send an email, especially if you're the boss, because often, if an email pings in at, you know, 1160 1163 Blimey, I've made up my own time 1136 at night, and you're kind of a junior in that team, you just feel compelled to reply because it's your boss, but being able to create that sort of understanding that, look it just because, if I send it, it's just because perhaps I've, you know, had to add a late day work and I just needed to get it off my to do list. But, you know, do you know, don't, don't read it until you've got time, and that sort of thing. So some practical stuff. But also, maybe, I think there is something in there about, you know, building relationships through your team and finding ways to maybe just understand a little bit more about each other. What makes people tick, actually, what drives them mad? What conditions do they need to work in most effectively? And, yeah, what's important to them? What are their touch, you know? What are their tension points and encouraging people to work out and share with each other. Oh, do you know what? Yeah, don't go there. That's a real no no for me. And having it in a non confrontational, non pressured environment, rather than leaving it to those bubbling points when everything goes wrong and you end up with unhappy people, because they either they weren't aware that it was their own boundary, or maybe they weren't aware that they'd impinge on somebody else, because you've never had that conversation. That

sounds like some really helpful thoughts and advice for individuals leading teams in smaller businesses. I'm afraid, though, that we are running out of time, as is ever the case before we wrap up, though, is there any way that people could learn more about what you're doing and working on, or get in touch with you, or anything like that?

There certainly is. Yeah. I have a website, which is Opus 29 that's op, U s2, nine.co.uk, I share various things on there. There's blogs, there's some videos, there's Yeah, if anybody's really interested, there's currently some pictures about Virtual Art Club, which is a random thing that I've ended up doing over lockdown that maybe gives you an insight to some creativity. But also, I'm really pretty active on Twitter, at Opus 29 Jane and I just love sort of sharing things, and, yeah, just hearing from different people as well. So yeah, it would be great to connect. And I'm always happy these days not to have an in person coffee. So I have very few of those. I'm definitely always happy to chat over a virtual coffee and chew the fat on anything that I love talking about, including boundaries. Excellent. Okay,

well, it's just time to say thank you. Jen, that was excellent. So thank you very much for your time. Great to talk to you. Thanks. Jane, thanks. Okay, so you are back in the room with us now. That was our conversation with Dr, Jane booth, all about boundaries. I thought there was some really interesting insight in there. Jane, were there any key takeaways for you or points you'd like to reflect

on? Well, as always, when we're talking about something that feels like it's relevant to everyone, lots to think about. But I think for me, it's always interesting to talking to Jane, because I feel like it always throws up more questions than answers, which is a good thing, I think, but especially this idea about as we the question I asked her, which I'm still sort of reflecting on her comments around, how do we get better at self awareness, such as, we notice when our need for different boundaries changes? Because I feel like, if we can do that, well, then we can, to some extent, maybe not preempt, but at least be in a place where we are conscious of where our needs for boundaries have changed. And we can be efficient with our energy and doing that, but also we can guard against sort of those, sort of some, some of those not so nice surprises, where you think you're okay with something and then you find out you're not. And sometimes that can be really damaging to relationships in the workplace.

Yeah. And, you know, interestingly, my reflections were heading very much towards the self awareness pieces wet as well. And you know, something we've spoken about before is this sort of meta emotion, or metacognition, or, I guess, just presence and being aware of what it is that's affecting you and how you are feeling and how you're behaving and in the moments that fill our day to day lives. And I think, you know, having an awareness of boundaries, and having an awareness of when boundaries are being stretched or tested and and the emotional impact of that can have on us is, is in it is, in itself, very powerful. So when we're aware of that, we can sort of manage ourselves through we can make conscious decisions about our actions. And I think that's quite an empowering place to be. So I think there's some good stuff in there. The other reflection for me is the. The challenges we all seem to have speaking about boundaries and and I think I don't really have any more thought on that point of a minute other than that is a difficult thing, and it's something that we're not great in teams, in the workplace, in our own life. And I know that things like, you know, contracting of ways of working in a workplace helps with some of this, but it's not quite the same as speaking about our personal boundaries. And I think there's something think there's something, something in there about drawing that out into into the light that could be really powerful.

Yeah, I totally, I totally agree. And I like, like, Jane and I, and you and I spoke about afterwards, after we stopped recording, we had a very brief, you know, wrap up, make sure we had all the tech in place. But we also talked a little bit about some of the some of the challenges in sort of our ability to, I guess, be uncomfortable in the things we say. And I think, I think generally, I keep thinking so much of what we talk about is giving people, finding ways to help people have the confidence to ask for what they need or want or shine a light and speak about what they are uncomfortable about or what they don't think is right or what is right, and how to get it more without necessarily infringing on someone else's space or frustrating someone else, and I think that negotiation of space that you can take up and challenge, I think is really tough. Yeah,