E082: Personal Development

This is the World at Work podcast with James and Jane. Hi. This is James, and this is Jane,

and here we are again with another episode of a world of work podcast. What are we going to be speaking about today?

Jane, so today we're going to talk all about personal development and leadership development. What it is how personal development relates to leadership and management development, some of the things we think are really important. And we're also going to introduce you to our model of how we think about personal development. Yeah, it's

a topic we really care about. I think it's something we're both really interested in. So it's interested in, so it's good to just share and reflect on it a little bit and hopefully, hopefully give people some insight into the way that we think about what these things are. I don't think today we're going to be looking at details around this or giving advice. Particularly, was that your plan, are we just chatting at a high level? Do you

think? Yeah, I think, I think just introducing them to the model that we use when we're thinking about personal development, I struggled for a long time to get my head around personal development and how to make it work for me, because I was always worried about what other people wanted me to work on. And I think the way that we think about personal development at the World of Work project is about thinking about the whole person. So we want to talk a little bit more about that today, and also about how it relates to developing as a leader. Cool,

all right, before we do that, though, don't forget, you can get in touch with us. A lot of you never ways to do that. So our website is www, dot, World of work.io. You can contact us through that, or check out other things we have on there. And of course, we're on Twitter a lot. We're out for a while podcast. We both got our individual Twitter accounts as well. So you're always good to get in touch with us through any of those. Yeah,

we love hearing from people. And I think what's really exciting is when we get to actually engage with people that are interested in what we do. So definitely get involved. And also, we love to get reviews particularly, particularly at the moment. So it's really nice. We've had some really lovely reviews about some of people's experiences of putting into practice what we're talking about on the podcast. And it's really amazing to hear those things. Yeah,

and we do, we're doing a whole series of online webinars that we bounce in and out of. So if you ever want to see what we're up to check out our website. You can you can learn more about the sort of online seminars we're doing that way. So let's start to think about this episode in a bit more detail. We're going to be using the structure where we usually use when it's for two of us. So we'll touch on some definitions, a bit of research, round up. We'll share a list of a week, some stories from a keyboard and some final thoughts. And we'll be with you, hopefully for around 30 minutes or so. And that is what we're going to be doing now. So given that we're focusing really on leadership and personal development today. Jane, do you have any definitions you'd like to share on those topics at

all? Yeah, as our listeners, regular listeners, know, we always try and frame each episode with a couple of definitions, so I've got a couple here. So personal development, and this is from Wikipedia, which strangely has some of the best definitions that we ever find. Or maybe not, strangely, maybe crowdsourcing really is the answer. So personal development is defined as covering activities that improve awareness and identity, develop talents and potential, build human capital and facilitate employability, enhance the quality of life and contribute to the realization of dreams and aspirations, which is no small thing. So it's quite an ambitious definition, but I kind of go big or go home, right with personal development. That's what I've always thought. And then the second definition I've got here is leadership development, and that's from HR zone on their website, and it says leadership development refers to activities that improve the skills, abilities and confidence of leaders. Nice, yeah, it's interesting because I quite I think it's a much more practical HR definition that one. So it's the assumption that people have been given roles as leaders, and therefore they need to be, well, they can be working on improving themselves, rather than the idea of developing leaders. Yeah, yeah. I think that's a good way to distinguish it.

Yeah, neither right or wrong. I wasn't passing comment. I just, I think it's interesting that it's coming from an HR source that's quite often the challenge that HR face, right? They have these people in roles that are leading, and they're not necessarily feel like they've got the skills and the abilities or the confidence to do it well yet, yeah, yeah. And the definitions are horses for courses, to some extent, aren't they cool? All right,

so that brings us to. To our main bulk of our episode, which is our research round up, James, why don't you kick us off and introduce the audience to some of the ways that we think about personal development? Yeah,

sure. And you know, we're going to start with personal development, and then we're going to get on and speak a little bit about leadership development a little bit later on. But when, I guess when we think about personal development, we've spent a lot of time trying to think about all the different ideas that we've come across and the different things that we've read, and trying to categorize them into a framework that works for us. And what we've ended up doing is we've ended up combining things into a framework that we call the think, feel, be do model, or sometimes we call it a tfbd model, or sometimes thinking, feeling, being, doing. It just depends how we're feeling anyway. So the think, feel, be, do, model is for us, a sort of holistic encapsulation of all the aspects of personal development that we consider to be really important for ourselves based on our own, I guess, lived experiences and for the people that we've worked with. And these four, four different areas, thinking, feeling, being and doing, we think, all contribute to the rounded development of an individual as a person. And, you know, in line with a definition that we shared earlier about personal development, it a lot of what we're doing is about helping people create that rounded set of skills, around self awareness, around clarity of identity, around, you know, some extent rational thinking and self knowledge and connecting with self and the ability to do things well. So as we've been through and tried to, you know, combine, and, I guess, synthesize all these different things, we've ended up with this think field, be do, model and at its core, it really just says that if you can get develop your ability to think and to be aware of your thinking. That's a helpful thing. If you can start to develop an awareness of your feelings and how you respond and and to be sort of conscious and mindful of your feelings at different points in time. That's really helpful beings a little bit more complicated beings about developing an understanding of who you are as an individual. I guess this comes down to things like your individual difference, your real identity, your personal values, and to some extent, your sort of physical being and your physical well being as well, and this being piece is really you know who are you as a product of a life that you've lived that shaped you as a separate individual that you want to to understand and support and nurture and grow and develop and help be your best. And then the last other things that we put on here is do, which is doing, which is saying, Well, how can you be good at generically doing things? What are your general ways of working and practices that help you function effectively at doing the tasks that you seek to deliver. And we break these four things down and pair them up with different bits of a body. So when we speak about thinking, what we're really saying is that this is all to do with our head. So thinking, when we explore it, is really to do with a sort of prefrontal cortex for sort of more recently evolved parts of the human brain, the planning, the analytical, the decision making, for moments where we think that we are clearly and in a reasoned way, analyzing and making decisions. All that stuff falls under thinking. And we're trying to explore how we can be aware of how we do that, and how we can get better at doing that, and then feeling we pair with a heart. So feeling, we really say is about the emotional heart of who we are, and this is sort of mid brain, and it's really to do with connecting with the emotions that we feel, and I guess, for hormones that exist and where we are within our sort of emotional well being, and then obviously being as connecting with a whole self. And we really think about being as in your gut. So this is your sort of visceral self. This is, you know, the old core of who we are, and really connecting with our individual identity. And then we think about doing as the hands and the feet. And this is us, you know, using that whole body to go out and manipulate and change things and try and achieve things and work through things. So I guess at its core, that's really the model that we look at thinking, feeling, being and doing, and that's head, heart, gut, and our hands and feet. So I guess that's really the model that we use. Jane, if you've got any more thoughts on it, would you like to elaborate on the things I've missed in there?

No, I think you've explained it really, really well. I think the things I like about it is that it gives equal weight to the different dimensions. And quite often you find people are more comfortable in different areas or different parts of their body or different elements of personal development. And I think that reflects that really well. And I think quite often you see personal development defined as by the activities you're doing, so whether it's training or whether it's doing a qualification, or whether it's having some coaching or whatever, and so it gets defined like that, and that frustrates me a little bit, because quite often, I think the challenges are not about those different elements. It's much more about where you are comfortable in yourself and where your skill set. Lie. And I think we to some extent get stereotyped as well, really young, you know, or he's a thinker. Oh, she's great at she's great at reading other people's emotions. Oh, he's got such a lovely so independent, and he's so comfortable in his own skin and all that sort of stuff. And somehow, that's true, but also, I think it allows you and encourages you to kind of explore the different elements and weights, and sometimes the biggest progress you see is tiny improvements in something you're not very good at versus the really great stuff that you're already good at. And sometimes it's the other way around. And I like that. I also like the fact when you're really struggling with something, you could just move on. So there are days where you're like, this is, you know, I get months where I'm like, I'm not getting anywhere with this. I don't feel like the plan I had is moving me forward, so you can just abandon it for a bit and go, Okay, let's try something else come at this a different way. Yeah,

yeah. And I guess a couple of things I like. One of the things I really like about it is that so much of development that we can have in these areas can start with developing a sense of awareness. So it's not always about mastering or changing things. A lot of this is just about learning to sort of be mindful and to understand these things and to develop a self awareness across these different areas. And that, in itself, is really helpful, and something that certainly I find beneficial, and that I think others do as well. So I think that's really helpful. Another thing that that that I like about these is that they're sort of interconnected, and the outcomes that they lead to, I think, aren't all just about being good at doing things. So you can have, again, a lot of these, I think, come back to achieving a sense of, you know, connection with yourself and satisfaction in life. So these are a lot more for me than just being good at doing things and good at work. This is about trying to balance a bit of fulfillment and life satisfaction within that as well. Do you feel the same? Does that sort of echo with your thoughts on

them? I think so. Yeah. I think, well, at the very least, if you're not aware of it, and if you don't understand where your strengths and weaknesses are, how on earth can you decide what to work on? And I also think people will forgive you a lot more if you're you yourself, are aware of your own flaws and strengths and that. And I also the other thing I think is incredibly powerful is when you can share an accurate acknowledgement of what you're not so strong at with others, right? Because then they're like, wow, this person understands. They also recognize that they're not making it easy for us, and they're acknowledging they'd like to work get better at it. It's an incredibly powerful and as long as you don't, doesn't become lip service, I think it's a really powerful thing. Yeah, right. I think the best people in the world are not the best leaders in the world, and the best, sort of most rounded people in the world are not the ones who are brilliant at everything. They're actually generally a little bit annoying. It's not their fault. It's a little bit annoying. They're really good at everything, right? What's actually really lovely to be around and inspiring are people who aren't great at everything, but work around it. Yeah,

yeah. You kind of make peace with who you are and adapt and and help others be their best as well. So some of the types of things that we think fit into these so within thinking, we think things like decision making fits in there. Things about mindset, ability to use data to make decisions, to understand cognitive biases, all that stuff fits within our sense of thinking and developing what's known as this sort of meta cognition, to understand our abilities to think in the processes we use. Then for feeling, we talk about things like emotional intelligence and trust and, you know, self management, relationship management, all those types of things. And again, that's trying to achieve, I guess, meta emotion, and that ability to sit above and see and be mindful of the emotions we have, and to have some level of control over them. When we speak about being, some of the things we explore things like personal values and self awareness and and even things like well being and resilience and individual difference and diversity. And then for doing at this stage, we think about things like personal effectiveness, prioritization, planning, you know, even things like networking can fall in there. So that's, that's what we think of personal development and how we approach it. So that's thinking, feeling, being doing, when we then get on to leadership development. Should we speak about Jane? Is now a time to do that? Yeah,

I like, I think it's a it's a natural to me. It's natural segue, I guess is what I'm saying. Because we fundamentally at it at its heart. I think you and I believe that the best leaders, whether those are people in leadership roles who happen to be in a position of leadership, or whether these are people that are made and are leaders, and we recognize them as such, whether no matter what their role, they are fundamentally at the heart of it. They are just good at a set of things, whether that's about the way they make people feel, about the way they think about the future, whether it's about how comfortable they are themselves and that they are able to make other people right. So for me, there's there's so much. And. And related to it. So I think you were going to talk us through four core aspects of leadership development, and kind of how they relate to our think you'll be do model. Is that? Right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

I'd love to do that. And I guess you know, just echoing your point there, I very much believe, as you mentioned there, that people who are good leaders are often or people who are great leaders, I would say, are often really developed as individuals, right? So we think that personal development is really a core to great leadership development. So sometimes we even use the language interdependently a little bit when we think about leadership development, and the way that we structure programs that help with leadership development is built on this sense of the importance of individual development. And we actually think of leadership development having basically four levels or four layers when we're when we're designing and working in that space. And the first thing that we always work on with leadership development is to do with developing yourself, right? So this is really focusing inwards. And we think that great leadership starts as an inward journey about developing who you are, developing your character, developing your self awareness, all those types of things. So our leadership development approach starts with developing yourself, then we move on from that to what we consider to be connecting with others. So once you've had some reflection on yourself, you're probably in a position to start to think about your relationships with other individuals and how you connect well with them. And then when we sort of have been through reflecting on our relationships with other individuals, we start to think about, well, how do we then create great teams? How do we start to think about the dynamics that exist in broader circles, be they larger teams or organizations. And how do we create these teams that help the collective there achieve more than the sum of their parts? And only once we've done that do we move on to the doing things. And here we think about, you know, how do you deliver well? And this is kind of processes and ways of working and things like that. But for us, that almost comes at the end. I mean, we really think that a lot of leadership is about creating space and opportunity and motivation and incentive and the desire amongst people to move towards being their best and to support each other and to help each other be, as I said earlier, more than with some of their parts. So again, the framework that we think of starts with developing yourself, moves on to connecting with others, then moves on to creating great teams, and then moves on to delivering well. And the process is there, and we actually see the this overlays or interacts really well with this concept of thinking, feeling, being and doing. So when we speak about developing yourself, a lot of the things that we we reflect on in self development from a leadership perspective, is to do with improving the ability of individuals as leaders to think well, to understand their feelings and to connect with them, to be well, so to understand their individual differences, their sense of who they are, their identity and the course of their life's journey leading them to where they are, and then to do things well from a personal effectiveness practice perspective. So a lot of developing yourself is about that from a leadership perspective. If we move up to the next stage of connecting with others again, think feel BD really comes into it. So a lot of this connecting with others is, well, how do you understand how other people think? How do you communicate in ways that tap into and benefit from the different ways that different people think and create harmony in that and get the best out of both of those people. Similarly, from a feeling perspective, how do you understand your emotional state and the emotional state of others and manage that and communicate in effective ways that help both those parties be at their best more often, likewise, being when connecting with others is to do with understanding that different people are different. They have different life experiences and life stories and different innate characteristics. And how do you understand where somebody is coming from as an individual? How do you understand their specific needs, and how do you connect with that? And then again, doing in this context is, how do you work well at an individual level with others, and then if we move up another level in leadership and get to this sense of creating great teams. Again, we think that thinking, feeling, being doing plays an important role. So in a larger group context, how do you understand and shape the way that that larger team thinks? And here we're talking about how do you understand the way that as a collective of people, you make decisions, that you challenge assumptions, that you strive towards efficiency in thought, clarity of decisions, rationalizing the course of action, strategizing all those things start to come into thinking. And at a team or organizational level, you can think about how you introduce processes that support those and how you introduce broader aspects of managing, the way that you do things to support thinking and again feeling, then comes into aspects of group dynamics, and how do you create a sense of safety and psychological cohesion and trust and to manage those sense of feeling so that people feel well and again being then goes on to looking at individual difference and diversity at a group level. And. Doing starts to look at how your team works well together. And then the last level, which we get to is to do with delivering well. And delivering well often focuses on the specifics of the role of a team and looks at how the team does what it needs to do. And quite often, this comes down to things like ways of working and processes that can be generic, but can be bespoke for the different teams that are there. So, so really for us, that's that sort of ladder of leadership development that we focus on. And as we said at the beginning, it really starts within so it starts with developing yourself, and it goes out one layer to connecting with others, and it goes out one bigger layer to creating great teams where everyone is more likely to be their best, and you get more, I guess, sort of harmony and synergy within that. And then once you've created that great, cohesive team, you can move on to doing what you need to do really well. What do you think, Jane, that was me kind of waffling about leadership development?

No, I think it's really important, and I think there's some things that really get lost. So my experience with people in senior leadership teams is that quite often they have to be very sensible about how they invest in their personal development and their own development, and therefore they spend quite a lot of time focusing on stuff they didn't know already, which tends to be the creating great teams and therefore there tends to be a little period of almost neglect is very strong, but like a period where they don't spend as much time developing themselves, whereas they might have done on the way, on the way towards leadership, and I think that creates a challenge. So I think it's really important thing to think about all of these elements, because what you end up with is people in senior positions who maybe have lost peers to share and candidly discuss this kind of thing with, because they've moved into a position of authority, but also maybe are thinking about investing in their team, because they're like, Okay, well, I would like to shape this in a certain way and have it working, which is great, but then they haven't really focused on how they develop, continue to develop themselves. Now they are a leader in a different context, and I think that really matters. And the reverse happens, I think, with people who are natural leaders, but not necessarily in leadership positions. So people who are looking to develop leadership and inferential schools within a team quite often focus on developing themselves in readiness for what they imagine a leader to be, but don't necessarily get a head start, if you like, on the connecting with others and great creating great teams, and actually that then becomes a bit of a challenge when they move into that job, whereas if we can start to think about it as a more rounded model, we've got a better chance of everybody being in the right role at the right time with the right skills, which would be lovely.

Yeah, it would be nice, wouldn't it? And something you said there made me reflect on the fact that a lot of what we're looking at here is about leadership in such a way that you take people with you and you inspire people to do things, and you you bring people along through trust and honesty and openness and integrity and all that kind of stuff. This isn't really about the, I guess, for command and control structure of leadership at all.

Yeah, sorry. I'm pausing because I'm trying to think what I think about that. I think, I think one of the challenges that I see around personal development at the moment, is the world has moved towards a place where much more individually responsible and away from unionized collective labor, but personal development is still very much seen as responsibility of the organization. And I'm normally one for making sure that organizations pick up tap but actually I think there is something to be said for and I'm not essential about money, sometimes it's about time. But actually I time and again, I talk to people who want to move into a different role, or a small senior role, or different responsibility or special project, and they haven't really, if I'm brutally honest, compared to the time and energy in themselves. And I know this, this, this veers dangerously close to sounding like I'm like a sales pitch for personal development, but I don't I. I'm perpetually surprised by people who apply for jobs within, certainly within all their own organization don't get it and then say, but they said that I didn't have enough experience. How can I get the experience? How can I get the experience? If I don't take a step up and I'll be like, well, I now don't want to use just me as an excuse, but there's lots of people I know who have effectively done their boss's job, not that, not all of it, but have shown they are capable of doing elements of their boss's job or another peer's job, such that they because they're keen to learn and they want to know more, and then when they've walked into interviews, they're like, well, actually, I haven't done the whole job, obviously, because I've got my own job to do, but I've done this bit, and I've done this bit and I've sat in on this bit and and people go, Oh, right, okay, so and that just, I'll confess it's my sort of blind spot. I'm always surprised. First, when people don't have a curiosity to try the job they might want, right? The reason I knew I didn't want to be a full time permanent CEO was because I had been done bits of the job and I didn't like it, which is, you know, I did. I did not like it. It wasn't right for me, and it didn't address my needs in our job. And I just, I'm always, I just, I'm always surprised. Why do you want that job? Is it? Is it? Because that's the job that people are telling you you should want. Yeah, yeah, that job if you haven't given it a shot, and that's a great way of also developing yourself, because you find out if you're any good

at it, yeah, yeah. Well, it does feel to me a bit personal development. For responsibility of both the individual and sometimes the organization. But it's always good to think about this. And again, if we think about the outcomes that personal development, whatever type of personal development it is that you're looking to pursue lead to, a lot of the benefits are around increased fulfillment and well being and life satisfaction, and that feels like something that it's really worth working towards. Okay, so I think that's probably it for research roundup this week. We could speak about that forever, but it's, um, it's best if we don't. Jane, would you like to run through a list of a week?

Yeah, absolutely sorry. We're smiling because I don't know why we smile, because we haven't done a list of the week for ages, I guess when we've been recording. So we've done a lot of interview episodes. So our list of the week is a book list, and we think these are five books that you may find worth reading. And I want to be really clear, we're not saying we love all these books. We're not saying even all of these books are the right five books that you need to leave read. I would encourage everyone to read if they fancy doing personal development and leadership, or listen if they prefer audio books. I wouldn't say these five books are the most but they are definitely provocative. They offer some really interesting and at the time that they were written, slightly different approaches to personal development and thinking about leadership and thinking about the way in which we conduct ourselves at work. And so therefore each of them has something interesting that, if nothing else, will hopefully spark your curiosity and interest to explore the area that they offer. So here are five books worth reading, Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, by Stephen COVID, one of the classics dare to lead, by American psychologist Brene Brown, emotional intelligence, by Dan Goldman, which had a he has had a huge following and really inspired people to start talking about emotional intelligence a lot more in leadership the everlasting evergreen. Start with Why? By Simon Sinek, who has prolific speech giver and concept creator around leadership and work, the workspace. And finally, Margaret Heffernan is a bigger prize, and you can Margaret again. Margaret Heffernan has a number of books around leadership. She says she does lots of TED Talks and things like that. None of those books, as I say, are necessarily books that we think are the best or worst, but we think each of them has some really interesting ideas to reflect on. James any favorites?

So I guess I'm just going to go for one I read most recently, which was dare to lead by Brene Brown. I really like a lot of her work, but she's doing about self awareness and openness and vulnerability and and what that means for leaders and how that can help create strong relationships with others. So I think there's a lot in there. I think this books are a synthesis of some of the other work, but she's done so, so I think that's excellent. I'm I've not read a bigger prize, but it's on my list. I think the message around the importance of collaboration versus competition, to some extent, is something that appeals to me. So I'm keen to check it out. What about you?

Yeah, I I struggle to whenever Margaret Heffernan is on the list, I struggle to look past it, because I find both her delivery and her writing style, but also the content and the messaging really in my comfort zone. So I always struggle to recommend anything beyond that, if it's on the list. But I also really enjoyed dare to lead, and I didn't think I would, I thought it would be, I didn't think it would be up my alley, let's say. And actually, I found it thoughtful and reflective, and it made me question a couple of things in the ways that I approach things, which was really helpful. So that takes us right up to stories from the keyboard. James, would you like to kick us off? Yeah, sure.

Happy to I guess I'm going with a fairly generic story, and it's something that I'm sure a lot of people have seen, but something that I've seen a lot in work is I've seen individuals who aspire towards leadership and want to be in leadership roles, and, you know, work hard to get there, but fundamentally, they've been doing well as individual deliverers with maybe technical skills to do things, and then I see them get their step up to a leadership role. And often they struggle, and they struggle, and for a lot of ones I've seen don't really understand why people aren't just doing what. They want them to do, right? And so this, this sort of foundation of leadership on technical skills without self awareness and people skills often doesn't really work. And I guess for me, this is just a reflection that you know, moving into leadership is about using new skills that you don't use as an individual developer, and a lot of these do need you to be aware of who you are and the impact that you have on others and to to deliver through others and work through others to achieve goals. And a lot of people don't have that. So I guess it's just a bit of a watch out and a bit of a reflection on all those people who've made the jump without the I guess, for support and the skills and experience to help them succeed with the new things they need to do in those roles. So I guess that's it for me. I guess just a bit of a look out. What

about you? I guess my reflection would always be about how how important you need to or how beneficial it is to be open to different ways of developing yourself. I was at one point, incredibly dubious about coaching and mentoring, and I now having experienced a healthy and really productive coaching and a separately mentoring relationship, I wholeheartedly in reverse. I used to be fairly, I also used to be fairly, sort of dubious about some training courses, but actually now I've pretty much learned that you can take anything you want from it, because, if nothing else, you learn what not to do about facilitating, even if it's bad, right? And there are ways, if you have that attitude of openness to learning, that you can learn from any situation. So I guess my specific example would be, I was pretty and I think I've told this one once before, but I was pretty dubious about going into a coaching relationship. And actually, I went into a session with my first ever coach and a member of my team, and she was able to help us view our working relationship differently, such that she created a language for us that for 10 years on, we no longer work together, but we're friends, but it still allows us to communicate it despite our massive individual differences, which I think is pretty impressive. Yeah, that

is pretty impressive. Um, any final thoughts you want to reflect on?

So for me, there's always, always going to be, and it's taken me a long time to learn this. Do the stuff you possibly can, as long as your personal journey is not fully mandated by someone else, you always have a chance to push it towards the stuff you enjoy, and that's learning the way you want. So what helps you? So I'm better in group settings or by discussing or speaking out loud. I learned that way. And also, you know where you you know, if you look at your think, feel, be, do, and you're thinking about yourself, pick the stuff you really want to change, because you are far more likely to prioritize it if you really, really want to get it done. Yeah,

I like that. I think all too often there's been focus on, you know, developing the things that you're not good at, or things like that. And I really like the focus on things that you are good at, you know, strengthen your skills. Yeah, I like, I like all of that and the things that you want to do, right? And I guess that things that you want to do leads me on a little bit to my own reflection, which is that I really think of personal development as, as I said earlier, not just about our work. It's about trying to get a better connection with who we are as people, and to figure out what are those things that we want to do, what are the things that make us happy, what are the jobs that we want, right? You know, I mean, you got to a CEO level and decided that you didn't want to be a CEO. But how do you know that stuff that's that's a journey of self development. And often we, we, you know, aspire to things that others think we want, but they're not necessarily right for us. So all this personal development in my mind is really about helping us create better, more fulfilling lives for ourselves, and helping us be better friends, neighbors, community members, family members, for those around us, so that we can help them have better lives as well. And then the last thing I wanted to just check out here was a quote I read the other day that I just kind of liked it was just in the paper speaking about the kind of response to stress and living in difficult times, and it was a Buddhist monk, and he just said, don't believe everything you think. And I really liked that there's something about the sort of agnosticism within that that really struck me as a powerful way to bring together some of the feeling and thinking aspect of what we're doing. So that's my final thought. I guess Don't believe everything. You think

I love that. Well, I think that's a really pertinent place to draw the episode to a close. So I guess there's just time for us to check out cool. So a reminder that you can find us on Twitter at the WoW podcast. Our website is jam packed with other podcast episodes, articles, information about our services, coaching, etc. Www. Dot, World of work.io. James, anything else? We did some videos

recently. We've got a couple of videos up there as well. And, yeah, don't forget, we're doing online seminars in different places. And that's really it, I think. And we'll be back again. Am next week, and hopefully we'll see you there, or hear you there, or whatever it is. Goodbye from me. Goodbye.