E063: The Future of Work (part 1)

This is the world of work podcast with James and Jane. Hi

everyone. Just before we get cracking into this week's episode, I wanted to jump on and mention our new support page. So as some of you may know, we're on a bit of a mission to increase accessibility to good quality management and career training. And if you'd like to support us in this, you can go to www.worldwork.io forward slash support to learn more. Hello. This is James, and this is Jane, and

here we are again with another episode of a world of work podcast. What are we speaking about today?

Oh, so I'm really interested in today. Today we have a guest. It's one of our guest episodes, and we have Lewis Garrod from Mercer, and we're going to be talking about the future of

work. Oh, that's exciting, isn't it. What kind of stuff do you think we're going to cover?

Well, I think it's some of your favorite topics in particular. I think we're going to talk a little bit about how technology might impact the changing shape of work, but also about people's experience of work and how what they look for in a career might might be changing now and in the future. That

sounds awfully exciting. It does all right. Well, let's get into the content. Okay, so here we are in the main body of this podcast. We are being joined today by Lewis from Mercer, and we're going to be speaking about the future of work before we get into the actual topic. Though, Lewis, would you be able to say a little bit more about yourself and your background for the audience?

Yeah, sure, no problem. And you know, thanks for inviting me. So by training, I'm an organizational psychologist, and so basically, what that means is I spend a lot of my time studying people at work, finding out what makes them tick, figuring out how to unlock their full potential. You know, I worked in the UK for a long time, mostly in the area of employee research, mostly employee surveys, looking at concepts like engagement and stuff like that. Yeah, then I moved to Singapore in 2012 you know, doing something very similar, joined Mercer a few years ago, actually, Mercer bought the company that I was running there, and now, you know, spend a lot of my time working on projects related to talent and performance, you know, culture, those sorts of things

cool. Well, it sounds like you're a great person to join us for the conversation on future work. So thank you for coming along if we start to explore it. You know, one of the things I see, and I think a lot of people see, is that the phrase future of work is out there, everywhere, right? I mean, future of work is a bit of a tagline that people check on things. Um, for you, when you think about the future of work, what do you think's changing that that we're speaking about when we speak about a new or a different future?

Yeah, yeah. So it really is everywhere, isn't it? Um, yeah. Actually, I was chatting to one of my friends recently, you know, which I mean, he was saying, isn't it funny how very often just a conversation about a future, the future of work, is used as an excuse to avoid talking about the problems that we have right now. You know. You know. You know anything to do with strategy. Strategy is a great way to look busy while not doing anything. And I did wonder what people were going to do now that we can't have a 2020, Vision anymore,

it loses this ring. But, you know, I think that, you know, you know, what does it mean? Why do we care about it? I mean, I think we're really in the middle of one of these significant transitions where there's really a sense in all aspects of our life that the level of innovation that we've created, and, you know, the way that our society is structured is really changing, maybe in the same way that it did at the turn of the night, you Know, from from the 19th to the 20th century. And, okay, you know, because if you look back, then, you know, after World War One, a huge social shift, and there's actually a lot of similarities. But for me, I think, therefore, you know, we really talk a lot about this, because people, you know, are very worried about it makes them very anxious, because they want some certainty in their lives and predictability. So what I think is really changing is, you know, both the configuration of, you know how people work, it's, you know, the tools that they will use and the skills that they will need, and then how work relates to the rest of their life. You know this idea that you know, the nature of of someone's employment relationship is shifting, and what people want from their work. And I think because it's changing, people don't really know where it's going. There is just a constant conversation about it right now, like, you know, where will this end up? I think it's it's become such a hot topic, and why we're all constant. Certainly all talking about it. Yeah,

it really does play to those sort of insecurities about change and lack of stability that people people find fixating when people talk about the future work, you talked about things like social change and changes to our relationship with work, and people often talk about things like technology as well, which I think can be somewhat misinterpreted when you think about our relationship with work. What do you see changing in that space?

Well, so, I mean, one of the wonderful things about people is that they always attenuate to what they've got. And what I mean by that is is, you know, if you think about the way work has changed over the last 100 years, the quality of our working lives has improved dramatically. It's really substantially better than, you know, when the industrialization started to happen. And kind of modern day organizations, you know, large groups of people coordinated together to get stuff done, came into being. You know, those places were drudgery, you know, frightening Dickensian, right? Yeah, that's really and, I mean, you know, we've moved a bit away from that. And what we could, you kind of notice is, is that with every dramatic step forward, you know, people kind of get used to their life being that much better, and then start to aspire to the next phase, to something that's even better. You know, customers do this, and clearly, you know, employees do this as well. So, you know, I think we've got to this stage where actually, you know, if most people look at their work lives, if you, if you kind of compared it back to 20, maybe in 30 years ago, they're pretty fulfilling. You know, they've got, they've got goals. You know, we companies aspire to have environments where people respect each other. Your boss, there's an expectation your boss, you know, helps you to be a success. You know, those things you know, are quite common in the workplace now. So, you know, we've got to this point where now people kind of step back and say, Well, what am I doing this for? You know, why am I here? Like, what is that higher level that, you know, I'm striving for? And I think if you if, if you looked at that 100 years ago, it'd been, it would have been like, like, who cares? But in the modern age, it's become something people are striving for and is important. So I think that's one thing you know, this sense that people are really looking for a lot more meaning from what they do, because they're they're afforded that opportunity like they never have been before.

Yeah. So we've, in the stuff that we've seen, seen a lot of reference to purpose and an increasing desire from employees to have purpose in what they do. Is that something, then, that you think that organizations are responding to and changing, and what do you think people are doing as employees to try and achieve more purpose in their roles?

Yeah. So, you know, I see a lot actually, I think, you know, people have got to the point where you know the quality of their work life generally are pretty good. You know, the day to day experience of being at work. They have a colleague that respects they work with colleagues that respect them. They have a boss that you know, at least that person their boss is expected to help them succeed. And because of that, I think, you know, now, people are saying, you know, they attenuate basically to to that situation, and they've started to say, well, actually, I want something much more than that. I'm want to do something that I really believe is is worth doing, that has that higher value. You know, it's kind of in the same way it provides. It's almost like an ideology, you know, I want, like, really believe in something. And I think people generally have that need, and see an opportunity to fulfill that need through work. So, you know, one of the key things, you know, so we see a lot of conversation about that, you know, having purpose and doing meaningful work. The thing that I think we get wrong about it, I say we, I mean, people working in human resources or leadership kind of work, is that we think that, you know, what that means, is the organization has to state some sort of higher goal, and then transmit that to employees and people, like a vision or a mission of some kind, that's really give

you some purpose. Sit there Here, have some meaning. And kind of, if you look at the research on that, that just doesn't make any sense, you know purpose and meaning comes from inside a person. They find it themselves. And so I think what you know, smart companies are doing is sort of saying, Well, look, how do we create an environment where people can connect what they want to achieve in their life and their work to what we're trying to do as an organization? You know, find some sort of connection. Between their personal meaning in life and yeah, and the work that they do. And I think Unilever, for example, does that has been doing that kind of thing really well. They hold these purpose workshops, and they've been doing it for years. That's good example.

Do you find that people know what their purpose is at the start of this process, or do you think that they're looking for a purpose and don't have any sense of what their own internal motivators and drivers are when it comes to purpose

well, so, like, you know. So the I actually think what people are looking for is meaning, you know. And I think purpose is a form of meaning. So if you think of meaning as what meaning is, is, is a is a connection between something. Meanings connect things. And so the highest form of meaning is connected to some, you know, to some very, very big concept, you know, the, you know, something that's very important at the highest level. And the purpose then, is something that's connected, you know, that connects you in your current state to some sort of important future, right? It's about goals. It's about saying that's where I want to be, this is how I'm going to make an impact. And so I think that because of that, most because it's about meaning and it's about connection. When people have this conversation, they almost always find that really it's about other people. And what I mean by that is, is that, you know, meaning is experienced as part of culture in society. You know it's you kind of thinking about how I want other people to feel, either because I did something that made them feel good or feel, you know, if some, you know, some people are a little more status oriented how I want other people to feel about me, right? Okay, that's also important. So, you know, I don't think people know what it is. But if you kind of ask them, What do you find meaningful and what's important to you, it usually comes in the in the version of, well, you know, I'd like other people to think this, yes or that, yeah, right. How interesting.

So social, like the social context of work, I think, is extremely important. And, you know, probably under discussed.

And you you mentioned that the some organizations may you mentioned that some of some organizations maybe don't always understand that meaning comes from themselves. Do you think we've seen a bit of a trend lately of organizations who sort of have even been described as almost cult like in their drive to be, you know, driven and have engagement levels sky high through mission and things like that. Is that something that you are seeing organizations move away from, or is it still quite unique to find organizations who are thinking about understanding how individuals make meaning of their roles and how they can connect to their own sort of motivation.

So, so I do not think organizations are moving away from wanting to be that kind of cult. I think that's probably a goal for many of them, like, oh, you know, and quick drink this Kool Aid. You know, it's funny, yeah,

because, you know, to be honest, that makes it easy for that organization to get stuff done because, you know, binds people together, etc. But that said, you know, I think that the white the one of the main strategies that, you know, successful organizations use to do that is really this sense of, you know you belong here because you are with a group of people who share your values and your beliefs about what is right and good. And you know what our mission is, etc. And you know what you believe your personally or personal role in that is, you know, down to you, we want to help you connect to that. But you know, this is what we all share together. And I think, you know, there's some organizations that are just lucky that they have a mission that just, you know, naturally connects to what people find meaning for and others have to be a little more creative and inventive, yeah. But like I said, you know, this is an entirely modern phenomena, like, you know, if you went back, I don't know, 50 years or some maybe even not quite so long, people will be like, Why does that matter?

Absolutely? And you see that when you or I certainly see it when I have conversations with significantly older relatives, you know? I mean, it's just a different mindset on what I look for in my work and what my peers look for in their

well. And I think you when you talked about attenuation, I think you're really accurate. I think, you know, there was not an assumption that you could put food on the table post World War Two, right? So that was, there was a large part of it that was made. Meaning by providing for your family, by creating a safe and stable income. I think what's slightly, what I'm interested in is, especially, is with this move to sort of the future of work and people all being purpose driven or there, and it being an expectation, is there still a room for those people who maybe just find purpose elsewhere in their lives, through family, through volunteering, through hobbies, and just want to turn up and get the job done. Do a good job. Nine to five.

Is there still a place for them? And how do we how do you think organizations will meet those people? So,

you know, I like to read a lot, and one of my sort of social science Heroes is a professor called Roy Baumeister. Do you know, I don't know if you've heard of him, but he's a, he wrote a, really, what I find very entertaining book called meanings of life, right? Not me. And you know, he's, the book is all around, you know? So, what do people find meaningful and why? And you know he's, there's a chapter about work, a chapter about family, about, you know, spirituality, whatever. And you know, all the way in which people find meaning in life, and all of those things coexist, as in, you know, you know, they people find meaning in all of those things in their life. And you know, usually somebody has a dominant one over the other. But one of the points he makes, and the book is fairly old now, I think 2030, years old, but it's really relevant even for today, is that you know meaning through self. You know, I find meaning by discovering myself. Or finding myself is the primary way that people find meaning in the modern age. You know, discovering myself, and you know, if you can do that through work or other ways, you know, then you're doing the right thing and and so, you know, I do think that there's, there's room for, you know, those other conduits for, for, for fulfilling connection and purpose. But the other thing he says is that, look, you know, the model of meaning through work or through employment generally follows three categories, job, career and calling these were the three things that psychologists talk about. So you can find meaning in your job, in the specific stuff that you do, because you find the tasks or interactions associated with it as positive, and, you know, give you a sense of purpose. You can find meaning in your career, because it helps you grow as a person. Feel like you're making progress, I don't know, maybe increasing your earnings so that you, you know, can provide more for your family, whatever it might be. You know, when some people experience meaning through the set, the sense that their work is a calling. Oh, you know, I was made to do this, it's within me. And obviously some professions lend themselves to that kind of way of thinking about work. But, you know that all three basically can exist within a person, and all of them can allow enable people to feel connected. So, you know, I just think we've got a lot more sophisticated as well, not just in enabling people to have the opportunity to say, I want to do something meaningful, but sort of understanding the role that work plays in people's lives. It's not just a way of earning money, it's a component of their identity.

Yeah, and, you know, one of the things that we are looking to explore at some point is, you know, in a hypothetical world, if people work less, what does society bring in to fill the void left by the sum of the purpose that people bring or that people gain through their work, or that sense of meaning that people gain. And, you know, we think a little bit about, you know, hypothetical 15 hour work weeks, or whatever they happen to be, and wonder if that's ever possible. I mean, what's your view on what do you see the relationship between meaning and work and working time being there's any relationship in there? Yeah,

that's a great point. So what's my perspective on that? So? So there's the my one of my first perspectives is just the economics of this I find very interesting. So I was reading a book by a guy called Tyler Cohen. He's an economist in the United States, and one of the things he points out, which I thought was really interesting, is that the people who earn the most money, like at the top end of the earning spectrum, tend to work the most, as in, you know, the people who are the on that top 1% what if you look at what they're doing, they aren't people who have, like, now made money and stopped working, they almost always actually are working more, yeah, and

they're on to the next project and the next one. There may be serial founders, or whatever it happens to

be, yeah. And actually, people who who are in lower value jobs, and you know, who earn less money per hour, tend, they tend to be the people who actually have tried to avoid. Work more to, you know, maybe feeling like, well, this isn't just worth it for me. And I think there is something to do with the fact that, you know, the very high value work usually has a lot of purpose to it. And if you think of the lower skilled work, it can feel a lot more disconnected and a lot more menial. So, you know, in terms of people working less, I think the evidence is, is that if you give them something to do that they really want to do that they really believe in, then they will use their time to do that. So I think there is an incentive for people to want to use their time for something meaningful, for something valuable. And right now, jobs work. What economic contribution is a significant way for people to achieve that? Is it possible that in the future, that we just will get to a point where actually, because machines and automation will mean that we need to work much less, that, you know, people will start to drift towards a 15 hour work week. I mean, I don't know. I mean, I, my, my, my instinct tells me that people will start to fill their time with other types of work that they find meaningful and useful, like, you know, social contribution, or whatever it might be, yeah, and we'll see. And even if,

even if you think about, you know, I guess, our redefinition of play, so sport has become major industry, even things like, you know, spend on political campaigning and all that stuff, which is, to some extent, semi play based in terms of its, you know, it's, it's a passion projects for people that's now business, and you only

have to look at the stats of volunteers, retired volunteers, so and how much more, there's loads of data around how when you're transitioning from the workplace to retirement, if you have voluntary roles of which align to your purpose and you enjoy doing them, you're far more likely to have a positive mental experience of the transition into retirement? Yeah, yeah, it's fascinating.

You know, Mercer does loads of work on retirement, and I think we think that it's, I don't think we think that, I know it's on its way out, like as in, because just the the numbers don't work, right? You know, we're getting longevity is something that's happening, you know, people are living longer. There are even real projects to try and extend lifespans. People are physically, well, longer. Actually, work is now more about mental faculty than it was physical faculty, which, you know, is obviously the biggest challenge for older people. And so, you know, I think what we'll see is an environment where, if we can crack this nut about making work a better experience for people, and I think we're on the right track to do that, because I think, you know, modern day business sees that as a serious problem that, you know, actually, people will want to continue to figure out how they can contribute in some way later on in life. And, you know, that's why I just, I think what people will choose to do with their timing, even if they don't have to work, because, you know, they they can make enough money to live comfortably in just 15 hours. I think people will feel their time with some other sorts of activities that, you know, you could still consider to be something that looks like work,

yeah, providing value to others in society, or something, I think side Hus passion projects, right? Yeah. And a lot of this is kind of the rhetoric that you hear when you hear people promoting ideas like universal basic income. I mean, you know, people there are saying, effectively, if you were to give people 12,000 15,000 whatever it is, $20,000 a year, that would be the seed funding, in effect, to free them, to avoid drudgery and to contribute more back to society. Is that your sense of what those are saying?

I mean, yeah, mine is absolutely, definitely, and I think you know the fact that a lot of senior people, economists, but also politicians, are taking that concept really seriously, I mean, shows how you know how far it's come, because it's not seen as some sort of crazy, radical idea. And I do think that the data around automation and just how rapidly AI is developing, you know, what it can do, I think has really caused some people to say, wow, you know, we really have to think about the social implication of this and what that might mean for us in terms of how we structure our economy, etc. So, you know, I think we're right in that transition. You know, my I don't have a crystal ball, but I think, you know, a lot of smart people have started to step back and say, Wait, you know, there's no harm in considering the scenario where it just makes a lot more sense to use. A highly evolved cognitive computer to do a whole bunch of stuff that we currently pay people to do, though, people will not be able to learn new to how to do new types of work quick enough, certainly in the next few decades. You know, because I you know, the chances are that we've innovated technology that we can deploy right away, and we it's going to take several decades for us to reconfigure our social system and our education system to catch up with the new economy. And we've seen that before, too. And you know, in that transition, we're going to need to figure out how to support people and give them things to do and, you know, enable them to contribute effectively

and to get that meaning and purpose if it work provides and the economic benefits that go with it. Yeah, totally,

exactly, you know. The other thing that I think is is interesting about this, you know, just talking about how technology is changing things faster than, you know, people can adapt, which is, you know, if you think about a lot of the new companies that are really successful, just how young they are. Many of them, you know, they emerged in the last you know, Amazon, I guess, is slightly older. You know, it's 20 years old or something. Yeah, it's 9723 It's ancient. Yeah, exactly. But, you know, just the way a lot of these companies operate is vastly different to the way that, you know, what we think of like a more traditional industrial organization or electronic based organization would operate, you know, just so much faster, more flexible, more innovative. And, you know, in the same way that I bet you know, if you think about mass manufacturing, you know, industrialization made the idea of having, like, a workshop and an apprentice in the late 1800s like, why would you make something that way? You know, crazy. Why would you do that? So silly, you know, that they just, it just completely revolutionized the way the economy works in the same way these organizations are deploying technologies. And they kind of would look at one more traditional industrial organization, say, why would you organize that way? And, you know, do they just start with a completely different mindset? So just the way that, you know, like agile as a concept, you know, in terms of the very fast paced iterative team working, the idea that no one individual can be a superhero. It's all about the quality of interaction, highly transparent, very fast iterative working, which actually also creates highly meaningful, purpose for work. It ticks all those boxes. That's a key part of it. So, you know, those transitions, I think, are also super interesting. And you know, what we're seeing is some organizations kind of looking at that and saying, you know, how do we adopt some of those practices? But the truth is, is that they actually fundamentally need to change the way they're structured, the way that they think about what successful and good work looks like, and that will take many, many years. So

it seems like some of the stuff that we've talked about is that a lot of work is not necessarily about work itself. So we've got economic necessity to work. We've got purpose or meaning motivators around work. Some of these are being challenged. So both the way that we use our means of production in organizations is changing, our desire for what we're looking for through this changing as well. Do you see the relationship between individuals as workers, or whatever we want to call them, and organizations changing? Do you see any dynamics in that relationship beyond for purpose piece, well, so,

I mean, I mean, that's one, no, obviously, in the last few years, there's been a lot of talk about concepts like the gig economy, etc, you know, and the idea that that would, there would be a surge in in the gig economy, which I'm not really, you know, if you look around you, you know, it doesn't seem that they're that all of a sudden, you know, organizations are transforming to be much more dependent on this contingent workforce, etc. Yeah, you know. So why do I think that is, you know, it could be that this is just a very slow transition. It could be that, actually, you know, one of the things that work does, that a job does for someone is it provides some consistency and predictability in someone's life. Yeah, and, you know, it's incredibly that's incredibly important, actually, for many people's mental health, you know, be to be able to sort of have some sort of plan for how, for what their future will be like, and many other aspects of our society are built around those models, like how you're going to get a mortgage if you show that you've got predictable income. But there are many other forces that are stopping that tradition. Operational relationship employee, employer, the relationship between employee, you know, organizations and people from changing. You know, it seems to be right now, something that isn't changing that fast, but you know that doesn't mean it won't change, or it couldn't change, and it doesn't mean that, you know, we in future, we won't we, you know, there's every possibility that we could. People see people saying, Look, you know, here are my particular unique skill sets. They like LinkedIn becomes like a talent broker or something, yeah, or micro tasks, or whatever it happens to be, for tickets from a Yeah. The

problem with the micro task thing is, it's like, return to scientific management. It's like, yeah, you know, again, if we talk about meaning and purpose, again, meaning is about connecting things, usually some sort of goals. And remember, like, goals have hierarchies. The you know, if you think about how something becomes meaningful, you think about the thing I'm doing is connected to this slightly bigger, more important thing which is connected to this even slightly bigger more, even more important thing which is in connected to this even bigger, slightly even more important thing, etc, and so on, yeah? And so as soon as you segment work and just make it lots of individual little bits, it by transaction, yeah, it loses its meaning. And so you reverse all the good work we've been doing, you know, that we were just talking about in terms of enabling people to find a sense of purpose in their lives. So, you know, to me, it's about, you know, how do you create now, as you start to disaggregate jobs and, you know, reconfigure the way that work happens, I think that there will just be a different mentality around job design. I'm still a believer that jobs will exist. They'll just, you know, be designed better. Yeah, currently are. The sense I get from

some of the books that I read and research is that people's experience of work in the West is the quality that people experience is varying more than it used to be. So some lots of people have really much more purposeful high quality work, but there is a group of people who are consistently experiencing lower quality work and useful. And I think part, you know, part of that is to do with huge costs involved in improving large organizations, workplaces versus, you know, I think, I mean, it's something incredible, like one in four people work in small and medium sized organizations in the UK. So, you know, how will they be able to, how will those small and medium sized organizations be able to afford to give the same quality of experience and take advantage of some of the automations. Do you think, and do you think that will change? We'll see less of those organizations? Yeah, so this Yes, the size and shape question, that's a great question, actually,

which you know, the fact that I'm poor thing means that I don't know. But if I had to react, I would say that, you know, in the same way that many that most companies today are able to buy some sort of email like a Microsoft Office Suite and afford it, you know, which many years ago would have seen like an incredible piece of technology, you know, you know, I think what we'll find is a lot of this stuff gets consumerized and available to many aspects of, you know, several layers of the economy, and that will improve, you go, continue to improve the experience that people have. I do think that some of right now, some of the innovations and changes are distributed highly unevenly and unfairly across many aspects of the economy. So I agree. You know, while some work has become very rich, the work that is still low, you know, what we would might consider lower skilled, you know, more transactional, I think, you know, there's less money to pay those jobs. I think increasingly we're seeing those that work become more impacted by automation and technology, and so those people, I think, are at the most risk of finding their work either disappear or become extremely limited and meaningless, and, you know, from their perspective, you know, just so disconnected, it just doesn't feel like you're doing anything that adds up to anything. And I think that's there's a social responsibility for us to kind of say, well, so what do we do about that? I think that's where the skills conversation really starts. Yeah, and what I would say, you know, the last we didn't talk about skills capabilities, but you know, the work that we've been doing, it, particularly, you know, with some governments, really looking at what you might call. Soft skills, or core skills or horizontal skills. You know, those things are really changing and becoming more important. And you know, you begin to recognize that we're so focused on technical skills that sometimes we say, well, these soft skills around cognitive, you know, basically thinking critically, and, you know, being able to connect across a broad set of concepts, how we relate to others, collaborate, empathize, influence group of other people. And then last, you know, how we stay relevant, you know, be adaptable and manage ourselves personally. You know, we don't. These skills are kind of skills that, yes, you can teach people, but, you know, most people just accidentally learn them that we're not we don't structure them into our education or even into our organizations in maybe a way that we should. And I think increasingly, see those things becoming important, more important. Yeah, and

that links back to your point about, you know, we might be able to change our organizations, but changing society could take 20 years, because our education system isn't geared for this kind of thing. Our structures, our durations of education, don't really fit. I believe,

no, and I think, I think it's the economic point is really important. My My mom's an ex teacher, and she's got a theory that the caring professions will be the best paid profession, set of professions, in 50 years time. She said, there'll be, like, one microcosm of number of people doing it, because robotics will do the majority of us. But for the truly wealthy, they want individual human carers. I love and therefore, and I just, I do know I have this conversation. My mom's not really one for talking about this stuff. And she said that, when have you been thinking about this? Yeah. And she was like, I just think teachers will be the best page. Do you know? Because there few of them, yeah.

So, you know, do you know who Scott Galloway is? Oh, no, marketing professor. He's very amusing. So I reckon just, you know, YouTube him or something, he's fun. But the thing that so I was watching a talk by him, and he was talking about some of the research around, you know, how people in caring roles live longer, yes. And you know, he said, which evolutionarily makes sense, because if you've got people who look after other people, they're valuable for the community. So you Yeah, one of the most, one of the best ways to have long term health is to look after other people, because it clears out bad cholesterol. He sort of, he was talking about this, and, you know, he was saying, Well, why do you think women live longer? Yeah, stick around, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I love that because, you know, I do think that the research on looking after other people, providing social value, etc, you know, all of those things, both at work and socially, has a lot of benefits. And you know, if you think about, you know, some of the leadership role models that we do kind of look around today, they're just the opposite of that. They seem self centered and almost and so, yeah, it's amazing to kind of think that even in the modern like one of the problems with mass media is, is that it still enables people who are completely self obsessed to get ahead. You know what you refer to? The know exactly. I'm sure we all have our own idea about, you know, people who might be like that.

Yes, yes, we're imaginative. I think, yeah. Well, that sounds like, Oh, I could talk about this forever. That sounds like a great whole other set of conversations in there. But I think we are going to drive to an end, because we've had some great chat there. Thank you for Yeah, we run out of time.

And if there's people are interested in the work that you do and the work that most do, where should they where should they go? What can they look at? Yes. So

you know, two social media outlets, so LinkedIn, you know, very active on their sharing so just you know, can find me, follow me, add me, whatever it is, and on Twitter, sharing a lot of content and ideas on there, really happy to connect. And of course, you know the work that Mercer does. You can find it on mercer.com loads of good research in the areas of, you know, financial security, long term, well being, you know, health, happiness, and, of course, successful careers. So people are interested in those things, then Mercer is a great place to find out more.

Great thanks for helping share a conversation that spans so many broad areas about my future work. I thought that was

really helpful. Yeah, it's a pleasure. Look. It's just great to chat to you and like, yeah, I really enjoyed the conversation. So, yeah, thanks very much.

Okay, so you're back with us. That was our conversation with Lewis Garrett. I thought we covered some really good stuff there. I liked the sort of broad, sweeping nature of a conversation ranging from, you know, some of us. Specifics around what people maybe look for in work, through to reflections on the world of work in society and how it's all changing. So right up my street as a conversation, what do you think? Yeah, it's

interesting, isn't it? It was much broader than I expected it to be, which it shouldn't be a surprise, given that he has quite a broad role, and he has quite a broad global view of the world. But I was pleasantly, pleasantly encouraged by the philosophical nature and also the framing and economics, which I found to be both refreshing and useful. And I think the two are very important to look at together. Yeah, it's really

good to bring economics, isn't isn't it into everything? I mean, we often sort of hark back to it in a lot of the stuff that we do, but it's always great to hear somebody else in a slightly different walk of life. Bring, bring it back to that as well. Because that's really, really helpful. Have you got, have you got any specific takeaways and any sort of specific insights, really?

I think, I mean, you know, it's like everything, it's confirmation bias, isn't it? But his, his absolute sort of confidence that jobs will continue is a view that I, you know, I fundamentally subscribe to. I think human beings will find ways to make work, and whether that work is paid financially or paid and remunerated in other ways, and whether it's the same shape in the same structure, I just think we are driven to do things and do things with some value. So I found that useful. And I think his reflective approach to the change and impact on society for maybe people in less privileged positions, I thought was refreshing and candid.

Yeah, yeah, it was nice, wasn't it? And I'd echo all those points, and one of the things I liked was for reflection, that maybe in some ways, technology is sort of a step ahead of where we are to society. And then, you know, we talked about the fact that it might take us a couple decades to catch up to to, you know, having the systems and the ways of working in the processes to reflect our ability to produce things now. So I thought that was interesting. Yeah, I

think, I think the one thing probably I didn't get the chance, I wish I could have spoken to him about, was whether the modern software age and the ability to be able to release versions that are not perfect, so beta testing, etc, has changed the way we think about rolling out organizational structures and job roles and things like that as well, because we're less fastidious about it being a final version, whereas when you had to build it in steel, then It was a different Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I

do that would have been interesting. All right. Well, let us wrap it up there. I guess it's just time to say goodbye and we'll be back again soon with another episode. Yeah, have a great week, people.