E044: An Introduction to Diversity & Inclusion

This is the world of work podcast with James and James, hi. This is all right, onto the podcast.

Hello. This is James, and this is James, and here we are with another episode of a world of work podcast. I've not got to say that for a while. Oh,

listeners, if you could see the little gleeful face in front of me, of James opening up a music did you just squeal? I just did a little squeal. Okay, I think that's partially because it's sunny today. It's

also because I've not heard Ripley squealing for a bit, so I feel like I need to replicate the squealing

for this is true. So since the last episode, since the last series, my dog is another month older and hopefully a little bit quieter background squealing. So one series, yeah, what are we talking about? So this series is all about inclusion, equality, diversity, and for those of you who are involved in HR, people management, people support, you'll probably have quite a grasp of why that's important, although we're still going to have that conversation with lots of different people from the sector. But for some of you who maybe don't work in that space. We hope that this series will be an opportunity for you to grasp some of the interesting experiences of people who work in inclusion and diversity, understand why it's important, what the challenges are, why the world needs to kind of get to grips with this and how it helps everybody, because that's kind of a really big thing, certainly for me is I'm excited about doing this series because I think it starts to break down some of the ideas that ind is something that a group of people in an organization do, or one officer does, yeah, which sometimes has happened in previous Oh, that's the diversity guide. Yeah. And I think I'm hoping from our guests, we've

got some really cool guests. Yeah, this series is pretty much August, isn't it? Yeah, pretty much. And

I think they're really going to challenge some of our ideas and maybe even yours listeners about all of this stuff. So I'm really excited. Yeah, it's good. It's a fun series. We are covering a whole range of issues within this space. We're going to talk about neuro diversity, we're going to talk about faith based inclusion. We're also going to talk about policies and practices that people use in the

workplace, social mobility, I think. So, yeah, really intersectionality? Probably looking forward to that. Intersectionality

is a word that you might have thrown about. If it's not your area of focus, that will be a really interesting, I think, episode for you. But we're going to start today with what we thought would be a really good introductory episode to this series, James, you want to tell us?

Yeah? Sure. About the guests? Sure, yeah. So today we're having a conversation with Sarah churchman. She works for PwC UK, so it's a big accounting and consultancy firm in the UK, as I'm sure a lot of you know. She's their chief inclusion, community and wellbeing officer, and she's worked in inclusion, diversity for for quite a while in that organization, helping to grow and shape their approach internally. I'm in relation to that. So it's going to be an exciting conversation.

It is, and for that, we've just so, you know, we record this after we have the conversation. So I've had the conversation, and I just want to apologize right now for sounding a little bit fan girly over it, because it's a really, you've just found your dream job, though, haven't you? Well, she's got this really interesting job. And I think that mix of community, well being and inclusion, I think, is a really interesting portfolio. It's like, it feels a little bit like the soul, the soul or the or the morals of the organization that she's looking after. And I just, I think that's cool, right?

It fits so well with a culture and what it's like to be there, and how you shape the purpose of an organization. And she uses beating pulse of the organization, beating

pulse, okay, we can go with beating pulse. But I also imagine that in an organization that's very success, financial focused, because, by its nature, is huge and it needs to work, I would imagine it's quite a challenging role. So I think it's quite an interesting conversation. Yeah, yeah.

So we'll get on to that in a minute. Now, it's just a little bit of a teaser taster for you. But just before we do, we've not done it for a little while. It's been. When did we last record? Like two months ago, just just so you guys know it's, it's early October. Now. We're recording this in the in the fading sunlight of an autumn day in Scotland. And yes, it's been a while. So should we check in? I'm getting

we can you? James, James has gone really literary today. Yeah, we should check in, because it feels like forever it does, isn't it, it really does. So how you doing?

Yeah, I'm I'm good. I'm doing well. I've still been really enjoying getting my bike out. It's getting cold, but I've been biking around Edinburg. Loads, loads of networking, meeting people, lots of interesting people, lots of projects coming up. We've got, we're doing a meetup group up here, which is fun about reinventing work, which is great. I've been out seeing people talking about that we did, obviously, our we did a workshop in Bristol. Oh, man, that was so much fun, yeah, but even that feels a long time ago, it really

does. But we did. We did. We did our kind of our first workshop like that, together, yeah? And. It's always interesting when you, I don't know cross, cross, the type of work you do. So we've, we've kind of, it felt like the first podcast, again, a little bit like, okay, but it was great fun, and just a massive thank you to all the people in Bristol who did turn up, because we really

appreciate it. Yeah, that was great. So that's kind of a little check in for me. Oh, more important news, we've got a car. I never used to have a car, but now

we've got a car. So can I just clarify James is referring to him and his partner? Yeah. No, not, not so me and my girlfriend and I, we got a car. No, it doesn't have a name. We talked about it. We didn't get any grown ups. Now,

some of us are that way. Apologies, but I did. I did basically do all the work about buying it on the day of other climate protest rallies, and I felt a bit bad I'm here, like furiously researching cars and and gret is out there doing good things, and the world's protesting. Yeah. What about you? What check in from

you? Yeah. It's been really busy. So lots of coaching. Love doing the workshop, really looking forward. Looking forward to the next one. And I have been on holiday, which was great. I tried to saw lots of wild animals, which was fab. I was in South Africa. Got some time to do some reading. So I've got a whole new set of interests. And I also go into my next year of my masters. Oh, exciting. So yes, all good, great. Well,

Bucha, check in. Why don't we get ready and hand over to Sarah and learn all about inclusion, diversity and equality. Enjoy our conversation.

All right, so here we are with another episode of The World of Work podcast. This is actually the first of our series on inclusion and diversity as ever, when we've got guests on we're going to jump straight into the content. We're lucky today to have Sarah churchman with us, and she's going to be leading off this series on inclusion and diversity and telling us a little bit more about the broader subject and what it means. Today we're going to cover that overall introduction. We're going to talk a little bit about what inclusion is, what diversity is, who it affects to some extent, why it matters, what we might be able to do to improve it, and what it's like working in ind, or at least that's what we think we're going to talk about. We'll see what we actually end up talking about. So I guess before we start, Sarah, do you want to jump in and introduce yourself to the audience and say a bit about yourself and your

background? Yes, sure. So hi, thank you for having me. My name is Sarah churchman. I am an HR director at PwC here in the UK, where my remit includes the DNI agenda. We call it diversity and inclusion. I'm the, I'm the Chief inclusion well being and community officer. So it's a very grand title, but what that effectively means is I lead our firm's strategy and approach to diversity and inclusion. I lead on our well being agenda, which includes mental health, and I also lead on all the programs that we have in in our communities, which pretty much align to our internal campaigns, but very much about supporting our communities in terms of volunteering and fundraising, supporting social causes and our charities, which include well being charities, and also social ability charities. So it's a great remit. I'm passionate about what I do, and it's a great job to have, wow, that sounds, that sounds a a lot and B, really exciting. I've got a great theme behind me. Just have curiosity. How many of you are

there? There are, well, then, now it is expanding, because this is a very, very topical area. It seems to me that well being, mental health in the workplace, inclusion, diversity, the importance of organizations having a social purpose, they all seem to be growing, growing up the kind of business priority agenda. So I've now got a team of 20, so it's not huge, given we're an organization of 22,000 people, but we're spread across 24 locations across the UK. So yeah, we're a growing team. Okay, that's really

helpful. That piece on responsible business, or on, you know, social purpose and stuff is interesting. Our next series that we're doing is actually going to be about responsible business and link into all of that. So

very topical. I'll be back. Yeah, I rather feel like there's like people listening be like, Oh, wow, you've got their dream job. Everybody, okay, the one the shots have been quiet.

Okay, so I guess would be really helpful, given this, his first episode in this series, would be to start by having a little bit of an understanding about what inclusion and what diversity mean to you? Sure, it's such a good question.

I think when I first started in this role, there was little talk about inclusion. We talked about equal opportunities and being an equal opportunities employer and and evolving that into an appreciation that until you focused on difference and the diverse communities that we employed you, you tended to focus on, you know, equality as a, as a, I suppose a euphemism for treating everybody the same and therefore treating them fairly. Whereas I guess the focus, the shift to diversity, helps you appreciate that everyone is different and needs to be treated. It differently, but I think the core to me is it means fairness, and it does mean equality. So I'm big on equality of opportunity, equality of outcomes and general fairness. And I've got a speaking suspicion that's because I've got two kids. I've got a son and a daughter, and having invested heavily in every way, in both of them. I now I want, I want to create a, I guess, a working environment, and ensure that workplaces, more generally, are supportive of both genders, you know, but broaden that people, whatever their background, if they're aspirational, if they're ambitious and hardworking, equal chances of succeeding.

And when you know you talk there about genders and things like that, what sort of groups do you think inclusion relates to when we're talking about diversity, what are the different types of diversity that you think are represented in the workplace that we need to consider? Well, I

think when we talk about diversity, I think it's quite limiting, which is why, certainly, I talk about inclusion now, and I think diversity, there's a lovely expression that, you know, diversity is about being invited to the party, and inclusion is about being asked to dance at the party. That's great. I had.

I think there's the other one is, you know, diversity is is all about the numbers and inclusion is about making the numbers count. So diversity is about counting the numbers and inclusion is about making the numbers count. So I think when we think of diversity, most people, a lot of people, actually assume that when you're talking diversity, you're talking gender diversity, because I think there's been so much in the media and the press and on the government's agenda around gender equality, gender pay gap, etc. More broadly, we're talking about the nine protected characteristics that are covered by the Equality Act of 2010, but I think when we're talking inclusion, I think inclusion allows you to broaden that definition even further, and it really gets you to focus, I think, on the intersectionality of all those aspects of our identities that make us each unique individuals coming from very different backgrounds, very different upbringings, you know, but all having something to contribute in the world of work and wanting to work in an environment that is a level playing field in which we can All maximize our potential. So I think, you know, diversity tends to be, I think, viewed as the protective characteristics, whereas inclusion gets you to shift, gives a shift to workplace culture, actually. And I think you know, if you're asked, how inclusive are you, you tend to then fall back to counting the numbers of women, minorities, etc, etc. So the two are interlinked, but they are quite different.

And if you were to describe an inclusive culture, what would that be like? You know? What do you think makes a culture inclusive?

I think it's a culture in which people, whatever their background, feel comfortable, feel they belong, and don't have to contort themselves to fit in, okay, yeah. And I think it's one that probably manifests itself in, you know, demonstrably, by having an incredible amount of diversity.

Yeah. So, so that's a little bit about what diversity is, a little bit about what inclusion is. I liked the, you know, invited to the party versus asked to dance analogy there. I think that's good. It'll be good to explore a little bit about why, why it matters, right? So, I mean, we know it's very topical. That's been for a long time. It's on a lot of agendas, like you say, government and other agendas in the corporate space and in the, you know, the third sector and so on. But in terms of the impact it has, what is the impact that, you know, the creation of an inclusive culture might have on individuals. How does that manifest itself?

Yeah, I do. Well, I think there's lots of evidence out there's lots of research out there. Some of it is quite specific on a particular aspect of diversity, be it gender or race. But there's quite a few reports, some excellent ones by McKinsey, actually, that that quantify the impact of having it's generally looking at leadership teams as, what's the impact of having a diverse leadership team, or, you know, a gender balanced leadership team on the bottom line, I think, I think, why does it matter? I think in the in the world of work and in the world of business where I work, I think it's becoming increasingly important for commercially successful organizations to demonstrate their social impact as well, and the fact that they are, you know, they are socially responsible organizations, organizations that have a strong sense of purpose, and, you know, live up to a set of clear values. And certainly my own organization, our purpose is about building trust in society and solving solving important problems. And I think equality is a worldwide it's a global issue. You know, delivering equality, whether it's gender, economic equality, is really fundamental. All to all of us as humans. And I think organizations, employers, business, has a role to play in that. I think if you create an environment in which people feel that they do belong and feel comfortable, they can be themselves and they can perform better, and if individuals perform better, they are more productive individually, which means collectively, as an organization, you are more productive. It does impact business performance. And in an organization like mine, which is an organization made up of talented people, we sell our knowledge and our experience and our expertise to clients, it's really important that you have the breadth of expertise and experiences with which to serve your clients. So, you know, it's, it's critical. I think to many organizations, they'll each probably develop their own business case. But ours is very much about we need to. We need a broad range of talents and experiences. Our clients are diversifying, becoming increasingly diverse, you know. So it's actually critical to our commercial performance, and

that's really interesting, and obviously you're in an organization, it sounds like it's quite forward thinking, and it's trying to really think about these issues. What would your advice be as someone who's kind of been on that journey, maybe to people working in smaller organizations who are looking to make their business case to their leadership team. Have you got any advice or tips of how to win them over? Yeah.

I mean, I think there is. What all the research into inclusion and diversity has shown is it's kind of raised the top of our agenda, the pervasiveness of sort of the unconscious bias that we all have. You know, we all really like to work with people like to work with people like ourselves. We socialize with people like ourselves. Some, you know, we have things in common with and that that takes place in the world of work as well. And I think in this period of rapid change that we're in the fourth industrial revolution, you know, digitization world, the world of work, is being transformed the sorts of sorts of products that are coming to market now, you know, we I think we all have a responsibility, whether we're big or small, to disrupt ourselves, because we have to stay relevant for the future. And I think diversity is an integral part of that. You know, you need people who've got different backgrounds, who bring a very different kind of thinking, who may have skills that you've never thought of investing in before into your organization, and if you're bringing in very different kinds of people, chances are your culture may not be very attractive to them or supportive of them. So, you know, I think, I think we all have a responsibility to disrupt ourselves to remain relevant for the future.

It's, it's really interesting. I was having a chat with um, a Chief Exec of a small organization I work with, and he said he finds this area quite challenging to push himself, but he says he's learned he needs to feel uncomfortable at least a bit of the time in the environments in his work, because that suggests to him that he's being challenged from a from a cultural and from a background point of view, which he's now realized is it's kind of a marker for him of yes, I'm probably pushing the boundaries of this organization a little bit

more than often, very senior people that, you know, they become senior because they're because of their expertise, because of their knowledge. And you know, if you think about if your social world is pretty homogenous looking, but you find yourself in a working environment that's incredibly diverse. You might not feel particularly expert in I don't know the cultural background of somebody who looks very different to you and and I think it might it. I don't know whether it's a very British thing or just a very human thing. You know, if you don't feel very knowledgeable, you don't want to appear as a senior person, particularly vulnerable by showing your lack of knowledge or lack of insight. So people don't talk about some of these things, but you can only drive change through. You can only kind of disrupt yourself if you start the conversation, if you start the conversation about race. You know, how do you know if you can use the word black, if you don't start talking to people about whether or not it's permissible to use that word? And I think that does require people, and particularly more senior people, to show a bit of vulnerability.

Yeah. And I think, I think that vulnerability can sometimes come with a need for them to and I include myself in this, not be defensive about what they don't know. So you get this sort of, you get that quite a lot, where I've had conversations and it's like, oh, should we be doing that? It's like, well, hang on, do you think we're doing it wrong? It's like there's a difference to wrong and better? Yeah, I would totally agree.

And so I guess I'm just a little bit interested in the bit you were talking about, sort of taking people, moving them forward, and challenging them a little bit. What do you how do you see? How do you know, things are improving. I guess is what I'd love to understand. Because clearly, it sounds like your organization is moving forward quite significantly in this but I'm guessing at the early stages, it's hardness to always see how things are changing.

I think there's, there's a number of ways that you can check in on that. I think at the very basic level, it's about counting the numbers you. So who's attracted to work in your organization? Who do you bring in into your organization? What happens to them? So there we talk about PwC, obviously, some of the accountants, consultants. Of course, we take a data driven approach. So we use data. We use data a lot of track. I don't know how any any organization can claim to be an equal opportunities employer if they're not using this information. And tracking the performance and the progression of their of their diverse talent, because only if you're, if you're using it in that way, can you identify whether there are any barriers, any you know, hot spots, whether it's a retention issue or it might be a progression issue, whatever it might be. And then you can make, then you could make interventions. But I think, I mean, the most important thing is how you engage with your people on this agenda. And you know, if you mentioned a podcast series on employee engagement, are you engaging everybody? You know, how are you measuring engagement? And are your, you know, are certain communities more engaged than others within within your workforce. And I think that that more qualitative data is really important as well to to really interrogate your culture, which is effectively, you know, all those things that make up culture, be it behaviors, be it your systems and processes, be it the language that you use, you know, are they fully inclusive of the people that you're employing,

yeah. And so I guess, when you're looking at it from your own organization, do you have something like an inclusion dashboard or a culture a metrics dashboard?

Absolutely. And we also set ourselves some targets for change as well. So you have good data, if you have good employee data, and a lot of organizations don't, actually. And I think the recent consultation by government on the possibility of introducing ethnicity pay gap reporting, I think was quite scary for many employers. Those of you know 250 employees or more, which are captured by the gender pay gap reporting regulations, if you know, if you do need the you need good data

to Yeah, and do you struggle with disclosure? I mean, certainly, when I've looked at this in the past, I don't think we ever, in the places I've worked, been able to get disclosure rates for things like ethnicity above about 80%

so we've got, our disclosure levels are just above 90% and I think if you know that's will we ever get to 100% I hope we would. But I think you know, if you've got anything more than 50% you can start to do some pretty good analysis. I think when you know if you've only got a very small percentage, it's very difficult to draw any conclusions from your analysis. But I always, it's funny. I always remember when the sexual orientation regulations were introduced in the UK by the government in 2003 and it that was, you know, that sent a few shock waves through the world of the world of work, you know, can we ask people about their sexual orientation? And I remember working with Stonewall at the time, and they said, Well, of course, you should be tracking this information. You know, it's now covered by legislation, and so just as you do gender and ethnicity, and you know, under the historic race relations and Sex Discrimination Act, you should be tracking, but they said you're going to have to ask your people to share this information on a on a continuous basis, because just asking once, they'll tell you to, you know, go put yourself somewhere. Yes, exactly. That's absolutely true, and that was 2003 and in my organization now, we've got about 75% disclosure level for sexual orientation, so I think you have to keep asking, but people will only tell you if they're clear on how you're going to be using the information, and they're confident that you're going to

hold it confidentially. Okay? And then when we think about, you know, you've got that information, you talked about, sort of making some interventions based on the data and insights that you get from your stuff. How would you do that? I mean, how would you identify a hotspot? And then have you got examples of the types of interventions based on, I

think a hotspot might be senior level recruitment, which is often pretty ad hoc, as opposed to, you know, a campaign to bring in a group of people or a large number of people. But I think sometimes, if you if you've got senior level recruitment happening on an ad hoc basis across an organization, it's only at the end of the year that you add up all the numbers and say, Well, you know, good lord, you know, of those 50 people we recruited, look, you know, 99% of them were male. Or, you know, I think that's where so then you can start focusing on your recruitment activity and ensuring that you're, you know, diversifying the agencies that you're using. You're profiling yourself in places that you might not have done before, really, to sort of throw the net more widely. But I think what we do, what we look at very closely, is, if you set yourself targets, there's only three levers that you can really pull to deliver on those targets. That's that's, you know, who you're recruiting into the organization, who you're promoting through your grades, if you've got you. Targeted every grade and then who you're retaining. So, you know, I think the data does, the data analysis does drive a sort of targeted action plan, and the targets tend to be aligned, or the activity, rather, tends to be aligned with the key stages of the employment life cycle, looking at your performance management process, the threat, emotions, process, looking at recruitment activity, those sorts of things.

I'm really just, I've been reflecting on something you said in your introduction, which I'm really interested in. So you mentioned being passionate about both equality of opportunity and equality of outcome, and I know that historically, that might have been quite controversial, although we're slowly edging our way forwards, but equality of outcome does require, probably in some cases, some more in depth interventions than we might traditionally be doing in terms of recruitment. So for example, we now know that women may be looking for more flexibility in their work so adopting more flexible work practices is helpful to that is that something you found difficult to convince your senior leadership that change might need be more than just about attracting people to apply for jobs, and actually it might be about sort of restructuring jobs

or change Absolutely. I mean, it's really interesting. I i fell into, I'd love to say I had a wonderful plan. I was the architect of my destiny. Didn't quite happen like that. Some years ago, I was asked to look at work life balance challenges in my organization, and this came out of a staff survey, actually the first global staff survey we did, that it was one of the top issues for our people. And this was literally going back about going back about 20 years before people work. Life Balance as a term wasn't wasn't much used anyway that I invest I investigated balance, etc, and concluded that that my organization and I actually spoke to many other employers as well, big, big employers, big, you know, big brand names that we would all know. I think we were all struggling with this whole content concept of flexible working, and how can we make the workplace more more flexible? This is, this is the early 2000s and the primary driver for that was to better support women, particularly women who, 20 years ago, in the majority of cases, were the primary carers when a family came along, you know, and often wanting to return to work on a more flexible basis. And and I think my only work had identified the fact that we, we were very, very supportive of people returning on a flexible or a part time contract, but we often agreed working arrangements that were never going to work. And so therefore, you know, the impact on the career, on the individual, was that their career might stagnate, they might not continue progressing. We weren't very good at taking a more commercial view to flexibility, so I think many organizations, and some probably are still at that point. You know, when they're when they're considering how to achieve better gender balance, they go straight to flexible working and supporting working mothers. I think, certainly, my experience is that that's that's changed dramatically, and in today's workplace, most people want flexibility, particularly in the knowledge economy, in the city and professional services sectors, where it makes no sense to have to come into the office every day when you've got all the technology that enables you to work anywhere and at any time. Now, there's a downside to that, of course, and you have to take a responsible, responsible approach to technology and use of technology, but I think technology is a real enabler to greater flexibility, whether it's for women, for working parents, for carers of elderly, you know, of elderly people, people who, just for whatever reason, health reason, can't work, you know, on a full time basis. I think technology has been a real enabler, and it has transformed the world of work. It's also been a means, a means by which we can empower people. Most people just want to feel trusted to do their work, but perhaps sometimes have some choice over when, where and how they do it. So I think actually the transformation the work, I think, has been fantastic for women, but it's been fantastic for everybody and but, you know, I think many organ, many, employers have still to transform. But I guess, you know, I think see technology as a real opportunity as opposed to a challenge.

I'm so interested that your portfolio includes both inclusion and mental and well being, because I imagine that that can be technology, as you've referred to, can be a real double edged sword with that. And I'm thinking about particularly in France, where there's all sorts of regulations about technology not being used outside of traditional working hours and all of that. And I wonder sometimes whether that that support for some types of. Of moving things or what feel like, their progressive policies actually can sometimes be hindering to people who want, as you say, more autonomy and more flexibility about how they work.

Well, I think they are. It's just a double edged sword. I think, you know, many years ago, people wanted to, I remember there being quite a strong demand for more homeworking. I think now we're far more aware that, you know, if you work from home, that can be quite isolating, it can be quite debilitating. So, you know, homeworking is not the answer for everybody at all. I think this is about offering people choices, but supporting them in their choices. And I think, you know, healthy use of technology has to be role model from the very top.

Yeah, okay, and it's about something that you find a challenge. I mean, how, how important do you think about senior sponsorship is in embedding an inclusive working culture, and how much effort do you need to put to getting in, to getting buy in from I

think if you have no C level sponsorship from this, I wouldn't attempt to therefore prioritize. It To be perfectly honest, I think, I think the leadership, the ownership, the accountability, has to be at the very top as well. But I think a lot of this is about role modeling the right behaviors. So, you know, you hear, you hear great stories of leaders who talk about, I know they're very, they're very open about their holidays and using the time for for a deep, you know, digital detox, because that's healthy. No one is very, it's very, I think, difficult to be always off the radar. But I think if people go off the radar, there's normally a way of getting to them which, which means they don't have to be always on, you know? So I think, I think role modeling and the behaviors of our leaders is really important in driving some of these changes and transformation.

Yeah, just thinking a little bit we've, we've been talking largely about situations where, let's say everyone accepts that the best way forward and the argument for diversity and for inclusion is valid. We know some organizations have some small pools of people who maybe find it more challenging to accept a really inclusive environment. And James was we were just chatting before, and James mentioned the phrase ind being something done to them, rather than as an organization, feeling that they are championing it so they always feel on the back foot. Is that? Is that something you've got much experience on any advice for people who maybe are not experiencing resistance at the senior level, but maybe at sort of other management levels, finding it a bit challenging that to get people to prior. I

completely understand that. I don't know. I think that's why, in my experience, it's it's always better not to talk about diversity, because I think it's better to talk about inclusion, because everyone wants to feel included, right? And the challenge is, most of us manage or lead in the way in which we have been managed or led in the past. And so therefore, transforming leadership and organizational environments is quite hard, because people tend to go with the tried and tested, because it's always worked, but doesn't work if you're, you know, if actually people bring you in a very different, very diverse so I think that's, I think that is right. I think it's, I think we have to make it meaningful for people. Most people, you know, most people are responsive when they understand what's in it for them. And at the end of the day, you know, most of the research around DNI does show that there's a there's, it's, there's a commercial upside. It's good. It's good for society to have people from, you know, more people working. It's good for business, as all the research and our experience shows as well. Most people just, I think, you know, caught in the middle, maybe middle management, just want to know what to do about it then, but, but also explain to me what, how will it make their life better? How will it make things better for them? And that, you know the how or what will be better and how to make it better will vary from business to business, and that's why I think there's no kind of generic business case. It's got to be relevant to your organization. It's got to be a reason why. And it might be that if you're working in a location where actually the people who are coming to work for you are just very, very different. Well, then, as as we said, PwC, 80% of our workforce are millennials. You know, we're not going to change them. They are changing us. They expect great technology in the world of work. So I think it's something, something about, you know, how do you, how do you therefore, you haven't got to have all the answers, but engage with your people to understand, you know, why they've joined, what will make them stay, what they're looking for in terms of the deal working for you? You know, it's about listening to people. It's about being curious and getting the most out of them.

And you know, if we're thinking about that listening exercise and trying to understand what's important for people and what people want. To feel more included. Have you got thoughts on how people in smaller organizations could maybe go about that discovery piece, that engagement with their people and to find out what's important for people in their organization?

This is going to sound really sad, but I would say, just talk to people. Just talk to people, and have those get to know people as individuals, because we all make assumptions about others based on our own experiences and based on what people look like or the little that we do know about them. I think, you know, I work in a big organization, and I often think how great to be in a in a much smaller environment where you do know all of your people. And I think in a way, in any big organization, that's kind of the environment that we're trying we're trying to create. You know, our message is, don't make assumptions about people based on the little that you know. Get to know them. So you can treat them as an individual. Only if you know know them as an individual can you work out what support they might need to progress to the next level, for example. So it all starts with the conversation and getting to know people.

Yeah, and that's really helpful. I think it's a piece of advice for anyone who's got a team or just working and, you know. And I think it's about having

commercial conversations as well, because what somebody might need, you might not be able to offer. But I think you know, if you have a conversation and you have a good relationship, individuals will accept that if you can't make a certain adjustment they, you know, they will be able to get that. We support flexibility at PwC, but some flexible working arrangements don't work in some parts of our firm, and other arrangements work better elsewhere. So I think it's all about working out. You know, what will deliver results, but work for the individual as well as the business. Yeah, it

goes back to that individuality, doesn't it? I mean, you know, everyone comes from different places, and businesses have different needs as well. So from a strategic perspective, you've got to fit with the business, and you've got to fit with the people. Quite often, when we do our podcasts, the people that we're speaking to, or, you know, engaging with, are interested in learning a little bit more about what it's like to work in the areas we work in the areas we speak about. What's your experience of working in? Int I mean, as Jane said at the beginning, we imagine a lot of people probably would love to be in your job. What's it like on a day to day? What do you get out I find it I think it's quite

funny, because a lot of people as a woman, I think a lot of people think they don't know me. Think I'm a raving feminist, but I, as I say, I, you know, I do. I love this job because it's so aligned to my own personal values. I think

it's a really, it's a really important role in my organization, because it's so very clearly aligned to purpose and and there's a growing focus, I think, on the purpose of, you know, in the world of commerce and industry,

I think it's, it's hard, though. When I started out in this role, I did not know that this was about cultural transformation and about shifting mindsets. I thought it was about updating our policies, if I'm really honest, ensuring we're bringing a diverse range of people in. So it's, it's, it's been a fascinating learning journey for me, and it's definitely been a journey that we've been on over the last 15 or so, what, 18 years I've been working in this space. But it's, it's absolutely fascinating. And the way I explain to people is, you know, many of, many of the pros, you know, I, half of my career was spent as a HR generalist, and I've specialized in recruitment or in reward. I don't own any of those processes in my organization, but I have to influence all of them. I have to crawl all over our recruitment campaigns. I have to look at how we approach reward and how we're rewarding people. I have to be looking at performance management, and is that delivering equality of outcomes. Is there any unconscious bias creeping in? So it's really interesting. So you have to be incredibly collaborative. You have to be, I think, also very influential. But at the end of the day, you have to build strong relationships, because other people, otherwise people do feel you're interfering, but, but I do think most people want to get this right. And I go right back to the data. You know, when people sometimes look at data and they can't explain it rationally. That's when you've got them, and you've got them, you know, with a willingness to change things and make a difference.

And if there are people out there who think they'd like to get more involved in ind, in their organization, have you got thoughts on what they can do? Can they do things on the side of their desk and they do anything? Absolutely.

I think it really helps to have either a background in HR, HR management or psychology. All of these will be really helpful, but I owe the people who are. And fulfill some DNI responsibilities on the side of their desk, because it's passion of theirs, and that might be in my experience, working with people who want to mentor, share their own expertise with people from a more disadvantaged background, or they might want to get involved in starting an employee network or affinity group in their organization for people who you know share an experience or a characteristic. So there are lots of there are lots of women's networks out there, or ethnic minority networks out there, LGBT networks, etc. So, you know, I have, I have a central team, but a lot of people in my organization get involved in DNI activity. So there are lots of, yes, lots of things both. I'm sure you know, if you're working in a relatively small organization, there are lots of other networks out there that you could join that that are linked to the DNI agenda. Do

so we're almost to the end of our time, but there's, there's probably just time for me to certainly squeeze in one more question. I'm really I'm really interested. We've been talking quite a lot recently about what the future holds for the world of work, and I'd be really interested in hearing what you think the sort of up and coming challenges are for the next generation of workers in diversity where you think you're going to be spending is

transforming. There is a big focus on upskilling, reskilling people to remain relevant in a world of work that is, that is rapidly transforming, I think, as as DNI professionals, Ind professionals, it's about ensuring that the focus particularly on technology, because that's that's so very core to the work that we're we're doing and how we work at PWC. It's you know, how do you ensure that you're taking an inclusive approach, approach the technology that you're using? How are you there's a lot written about, you know, how you're ensuring that the the products you're using, the AI that you're tapping into, isn't perpetuating biases of the past? So I think focusing on digital upskilling in a fair way, making sure everyone's having having the opportunity. The opportunity, you know, to upskill, to remain relevant. And I think just helping, helping the work, the world of work, evolve. There's also a lot written about how jobs are going to be taken over by the bots. But, you know, someone's got to create the bots, haven't they? So I just think that, you know, I think, I think the shift and the change that we're seeing is a great opportunity for DNI, because I think the workplaces, or of the past, the very traditional workplaces, did make diversity, diversity and inclusion, quite challenging. So I think the scale of change that we're seeing is a real opportunity.

Yeah, and just to follow up on that, because I'm it's personal interest of mine, really, is, do you get a sense that we're almost coming full circle around things like age? So this whole technology issue, one of the sort of challenges that's been leveled at the world of work is that maybe we're actually moving to a place where older workers are feeling less able and less I think that's definitely assumptions are being made to change or transform themselves. Stereotyping

is an element of truth to a stereotype. But I think it's like, you know, how do we dispel those stereotypes? Is it showcasing all the role models that serve to dispel those stereotypes? You know? I think also this focus on technology, you know, technology is is an enabler, but technology is a thing, and it's only as good as the people who use it, who develop the code, but, but equally, you know, it requires human insight as well to really, to really maximize the use of technology. And I, you know, we forget the wisdom of those who have, who have experienced more. I think, you know, human insight, business insight and technology is a winning mix.

That's brilliant, yeah, well, I think it's just time to say thank you. I thought that was excellent. I think we covered some really interesting things there. And I think it's given our listeners a real introduction to ind and the breadth of it, and some of the exciting aspects of working, some of the challenges and things that you can do in that space. James

is hilariously smiling, and all I can think is, I think your job sounds brilliant. Which is I? Which? As I guarantee you not something I say to lots of people. And. But I think your portfolio is really interesting, and I guess, from my perspective, it's just to say a massive thank you for sharing your experience with our listeners, because for a lot of them, it's a really important issue, pleasure, real pleasure. Thank you. Okay,

welcome back. So that was our conversation with Sarah. We thought that was really thought that was really interesting. We thought it was a great introduction of a subject. So hopefully you enjoyed it, too. Jen, have you got any sort of key thoughts on it or Takeaways that's stuck in your mind? Well,

aside from the fact she's got a team of 20 people, which makes me a little bit jealous, I think probably my highlight was when she described part of her role as having to crawl all over a recruitment campaign. And I think I thought it was really interesting, because she comes across and she presents her area as a very soft, is the wrong word, but a very, that's kind of human, isn't it? Human

work, and yet, the way she phrased it is almost a need to be forensic about identifying where there might be unintended issues or bias in a piece of work that she hasn't done so someone else has done that recruitment process, and she has to literally crawl all over it, finding what the problems are. And I think great juxtaposition. I really think it's helpful in thinking about how to do inclusion and diversity. Well, yeah,

and I think it's helpful for people who might be interested in learning more about what it's really like to try and change an organization

this way, yeah? And that she will have had to gone away and challenge on that. Yeah, cool. So that was mine, yours.

Well, I guess, obviously, though lots of, lots of stuff in there, that was really good. One of the things that really stuck in my mind was the fact that, you know, everyone can do this from a side of our desk, right? So there's the whole link to your personal values and purpose and making a difference in work, and the fact that so many people have an opportunity to do this as something that gives them purpose while doing their own jobs, and particularly for smaller organizations. She talked about kind of umbrella diversity networks that you can be involved in. So I think you know, If anyone desires to work in this space, they can make it happen. And that's a great, great thing. Yeah, I think it is, and a really positive message.

Great. All right, well, why don't we say goodbye to everybody and check in again next week? Absolutely enjoy. Hi.