E042: Introduction to Mental Health

now on to this episode.

Hello. This is James and Jane, and here we are again with another episode of a world of work podcast. What are we talking about today? Jane, we

are talking about when things aren't great, when things aren't great. That's how we've referred to. Me, yeah, it's hard to like, really know it is. It is. We're talking about

mental health in the workplace, and I guess it's still a really challenging topic to talk around, even though it is so much better than it used to be, and people are talking about it more. And I guess it's a reality of a lot of people's working lives that someone in their team themselves, someone in their family, has mental health challenges that maybe are either impacting on their work, and I'm not, we're not going to talk. I mean, there's lots of things that you can cover in this, and obviously there's a huge range of spectrum of issues we're talking, particularly about sort of the end of the spectrum where it is not necessarily stopping you from going to work and being at work, but it is something that maybe with additional support, you might be able to manage more easily. Yeah, does that make sense? Yeah,

it does. It does. And I think it's worth calling out at this stage that, you know, we aren't professionals in this topic. You know, professional advice is the way to go when, and we're going to signpost right to a couple of places that we think are useful. Yeah,

just worth calling it out. And remember, this is in the context of the series that we're doing. So this whole series is really about personal development and growth, isn't it, and we've looked at things like happiness, and we've looked at things like self awareness and personal effectiveness, but we just thought it was really good to try and focus on when things don't go as well from a self development, personal development perspective as well, because obviously you know, you want to develop as a person and and, you know, grow and continue to evolve and help make things better. But the reality is, particularly, as we see when we look at some stats, that everybody faces circumstances where things aren't great, and one of the things that it's great to develop as a skill as you're developing as a person is the ability to deal with things when everything isn't all rosy, because so many people face it, right? I mean, I just think it's a really nice little bolt on to this series to focus on some things that aren't about, you know, perfection and reaching a goal that's really good for us. Yeah, and

I think, you know, both of us have experienced it from a personal in some sense or professional point of view. Yeah, and it feels somehow, feel remiss not to acknowledge it and call it 100% that makes sense? Yeah, it does. And so we're going to be really careful in this episode, and we're going to try really hard to only give practical advice that's useful and only signpost to people that we trust and know as organizations, and to make sure we use the right language, but we're not professionals, yeah, but we think the conversation needs to happen more. And I think you can look around and see that the more that people who are not professionals having this conversation probably the better it

is. Yeah, yeah. And I think at some point, when we look at inclusion and diversity and things like that, we'll probably do a little bit more on mental health and things of that nature, but this is really about the personal development side of it, and it's easy to get kind of trapped by some other language and be worried about saying stuff for fear of getting something wrong. And we're going to just try and ride through that and say things that are helpful and useful and signpost where we need to before we jump into all of this exciting stuff. Why don't we do a little check in on how people can get in touch with us. Where should people go to make

Well, we have our shiny website, www, dot, World of work.io. And then we love it, if you come and say hello on social media, well, I love it. And we are on social media. On You can find us on LinkedIn, Instagram or Facebook, but we are at our most social on Twitter, social, well, lots of people come find us, and we post a few polls and we have a little bit of fun, sometimes some pictures, sometimes some little videos, yeah, sometimes James takes photos of me when I'm not looking at my best mid record, mid record, or looking really intense, so I can't do anything to stop it, which he thinks is hilarious. It's

best when you film it when somebody's doing this, because they have to keep going. And it's kind of funny. And then you also get the occasional photo bomb for my dog, which, oh yes, yeah, in our photo. As well.

Yeah, so that's getting in touch with us. Check in. How's it going? I hear the weather's been nice and so good. It's

so good summertime. It is summertime. It's glorious. I want to be out in it, but I've got lots to do, don't we all but I was, I was, you know, one of the reasons that I moved to this city was because I wanted to spend more time outdoors. Yeah, so I was up a big Hill this morning, 715 nice, quite proud of myself. The hills around here. Was overdressed, though I had an extra layer that I didn't need, so I came down a bit sweaty, but it was great. And, yeah, I really believe in the power of outdoor esthetics nature. You

know, there was, um, there was an article I was reading the other day about the power of the outdoors from a health perspective, and there's a bit of a move to almost prescribe time outdoors social prescribing. Yeah, but this is specifically about outdoors, so social prescribing is very helpful, but this is really, you know, asking people, how much time do you spend outside, be it alone or social so they've

moved on from the basics, which was around physical activity and healthy eating and stuff like that, but it's really exciting to see all sorts of cool stuff about exposing to green and yeah, love it, yeah. And it's easier when the sun shining

right, yeah. Well, that's right. And one of the things I've been enjoying is taking my bike out. It's been a long time since I've really been getting involved in my bike. I, like many people, I bought more. This is a push bike, by the way, a pedal bike. I bought more of a bike than I needed years ago.

And yes, that is definitely more bike than you need. Yeah. So mine, I really don't I need just a

little bike that'll help me get down the road, but I've got a bike that'll do all kinds of stuff anyway. I've been taking it out and having a lot of fun with it and kind of reconnecting with that and doing that, and doing that, which has been really good. So that's been my main adventures over the last little while. In terms of times, things sort of changed every time. Why don't we jump in with some definitions? Cool? Do you want to lead us off?

Yeah, absolutely. So slightly different sources for some of the ones today and slightly longer, because I'm trying to be accurate. Yeah, a bit more sort of Yeah. So we're going to pick up a couple that we've used before, but different. But different definitions. So which is well being and resilience. And then we're going to look at definition for mental health, for stress and for anxiety, which are the two most, I guess, common presentations, yeah, that we see of in the workplace, low level, non clinical, yeah? So well being a good or satisfactory condition of existence, a state characterized by health, happiness and prosperity,

there we go. What do you think of that?

I like a lot of it. I'm not so sure about prosperity being in there. I guess I don't know. Maybe I'd need a definition of prosperity to help me assess this a little bit more. But for me, I like the fact that it's a condition of existence, that it's about health and happiness, and it's about things like welfare and and things like, you know, generally, being in a good place, and some of a softer language from other parts of the world sneaks into my mind when I think about it, like, you know, being balanced, being some extent positive, all those types of things. So prosperity is the only one I'm not really sure about. But I guess if prosperity is not about wealth, if it's about prosperous in other parts of your life, I'm pretty happy

with it. Okay, so, interestingly, I'm the opposite. I'm really happy that there's something financial in there. Do you think? Because I think financial instability is probably the biggest cause of one of the biggest causes of challenges. And I actually, if it wasn't, I'm not sure about prosperity the word, but I like the financial aspect of it, sure. And if it was financial well being or financial stability, I'd be all over that. Because actually, I think you struggle to be well, have a good sense of well being if you are financially insecure. Yeah,

I'd agree with that. I just take prosperity as meaning above a threshold level and sort of exceeding thresholds, yeah. And

so I get that, and I totally agree with you on that, but I just, I love, yeah, resilience, the ability of a substance to return to its usual shape after being bent, stretched or pressed. Gosh, so I complained about the resilience definition when we did the episode on resilience, because I found one that meant, was it confirmation bias? I found a definition that agrees with what I think resilience is, sorry, what kind of substance are you doing? So

for me, the ability to return to shape after traumatic events, is how I think of resilience in this space, or not traumatic, strong, but after difficulty, yeah, and to somehow get your shape back. And that feels to me what what resilience is like. It's like I can absorb we I always think about like a stress ball and it coming back to shape after it's had something prodded in. Do you remember those, like faces, the squishy, yeah, I

wasn't gonna say that. Do you remember those things? They looked like sort of bowling pins, and you knock them down and it bounces back up. I mean, that's one of the things, I think, yeah.

I mean, it's unfortunate that someone has actually coined the term bounce back ability, deeply awful phrase, like some football can. Worked here, wasn't it? Yeah, it was but, but, but in its sense, this idea that you have a shape as a human, and that it can be stretched, and it can be bent out of shape, and you can be pressed or goaded, yeah, and yet you can return to that. And I always, I know that we've talked about resilience, being a battery or a container that you refill, yeah? And so for me, the more you're full at that point, and the more that you're feeling resilient, the quicker you come back to shape, right? And the less you suffer from that push. That makes sense, yeah? Cool. So then, and that was from Cambridge, believe it or not, normally, I'm not a master fan, sorry, Cambridge mental health, and I've picked up the World Health Organization who that joke is never not funny, who clearly, just for anyone, I'm just laughing so and it's not really a definition, but it's an exclamation. Mental health is not just the absence of mental disorder. It is defined as a state of well being, in which every individual realizes his or her own potential, can cope with normal stresses of life, can work productively and fruitfully, and is able to make a contribution to his or her community. And what I mean by that is mental good health, right? They don't just mean the state of mental health, but I really liked it. I think it's pretty fulsome, and it's pretty high, you know, it's stretching, which I like. Well, one of

the things I like about it is it talks about mental disorder as well as well being, yeah, and that's something we'll look at a bit later on. But I think there are these two different concepts of what mental health is about, and so I think that's useful,

yeah. And then stress, anxiety, we're going to turn to our friends at mind. Mind is a fabulous British charity that covers England and Wales. Well, I think, I think that's what it is. Stuart will, no doubt get in touch and tell me if I'm wrong, because he runs one of the they're not in Scotland. That's what I know anyway. So they're brilliant. They have all sorts of resources we're going to talk about a little bit later, but if you want to find them, they are called Mind, and they are absolutely the place to go to for information, yeah, and they also have a website called Ellie friends.org.uk which is a special support online forum for people who want to find other people. So you spell it like an elephant, so E, L, E, F, R, i, e, n, d, le, friend with an S on the end.org.uk, and we'll put a link up as well, because I think they're amazing anyway, so mind refer to stress as and again, these aren't definitions as such, but they're explanations. We all know what it's like to feel stressed, but it's not easy to pin down exactly what stress means. When we say things like, this is stressful or I'm stressed, we might be talking about situations or events that put pressure on us, for example, times where we have lots to do and think about or don't have much control over what happens okay, and also our reaction to being placed under pressure, the feelings we get when we have demands placed on us we find difficult to cope with anxiety they talk about as an anxiety is a word we use to describe feelings of unease, worry or fear. It incorporates both the emotions and the physical sensations we might experience when we are worried or nervous about something, although we usually find it unpleasant, anxiety is related to the fight or flight response, our normal biological reaction to feeling threatened. Yeah. And so what they're really saying there is that it's pretty commonplace in everyone, in some cases, even biologically. There's a reason for it, but it's the question will come is about how it impacts your life, yeah. And the scale of those, scale of how it impacts your life and whether you're coping, yeah. And, and, you know, I, for me, I find those incredibly useful explanations, which as well, yeah, yeah. They're quite easy to connect with. They're quite so this

is what I think is so great about that organization. And there are loads of brilliant mental health organizations, but health organizations, but this is what I think so great about mind and the work they do. I always feel like it's written for me, that everyone else feels like it's written to me personally, even if I'm there as a researcher or if I'm there as a line manager or something like that. Yeah. Oh, good. Well,

what do you think of those?

I like those. I like those. I can really relate to both of them in both life experience, but the way they capture it, like you said, it's written in a successful way. And I think they're important concepts. I think stress and anxiety are really important from a work perspective. And I think we'll come on to that when we look a little bit more at some of the sort of stats around this stuff as well, in a bit. So I think it's a great starter for our conversation. Great. What do you say? We jump on to a bit of research. Oh, round up your research. Round up the research. Fala is coming out again, not funny. Oh no, it's never gonna be funny. You're, I

think you're subscribing to that theory that when you make a joke enough times, eventually it becomes funny, even if it's not. Yeah,

well, eventually I know. Yeah, all right. So, so what are we going to do with research? We're going to start with a little bit of a look at exactly what it is that we're talking about, the types of things that we're talking about. We're going to share some facts around mental health. We're going to look at a little bit of a matrix that combines mental well being and mental illness, which links to the definition of mental health that we saw at the beginning of this. We're going to quickly run through something called the mental health continuum, and then we're going to touch on some stuff that we actually covered earlier in an episode on resilience, and just reflect on things that you can do in the moment when something happens that makes you a little bit uncomfortable, and some thoughts around that, and then just leave you with a few thoughts about this overall subject. So that's, that's what we're going to run through, if we start really quickly. You know, talking about what we're talking about when we're speaking about the types of things that can go wrong at work like this, we're really speaking about, I guess, you know, subclinical or a non clinical event, sort of mental health type things that would include stress, anxiety and depression. We just want to call out that, you know, things like task related problems at work, physical health, life events, mental health, all of those things can have an impact on your mental health and well being and and if those things affect on mental health and well being, then they can have, you know, really powerful effect that are clinical, or that can have, you know, less less powerful effects that are still really important, but that are subclinical, and that maybe you can manage a bit yourself without professional help. And it's those ones that we're starting to look at. So we're focusing on things that people can manage themselves through a little bit, that leaders can help work with their teams on, and that you can create more healthy environment for what we're absolutely not focusing on is the more severe examples of these types of challenges for which people should have mental health. So we just want to call that out really early on. It's a bit of a caveat, I guess, but it's just important. You know, this stuff is important, and people should get help where, where necessary,

yeah, and if that's your national health provider, if that's your local GP, or what would it be called in America, your doctor, your doctor. And also, I would imagine you can mind is an English website, but I'm sure you can find it, yeah, you

can access it there. And there are lots of equivalent mental health organizations around the world. So then if we look at some facts, and this is facts about the UK, though, I'm fairly sure this is indicative for a lot of the world. And we're just going to run through a few, I've got several facts that are about the I guess, the prevalence of mental health issues, and then a few, I guess, about and to some extent, the impact or the state of play in relation to this. So in the UK, this is from a report called the mental health at work report from 2018 it's, it's kind of a high level, standard report that's accepted in the UK and esteemed looking at these areas. So three things about prevalence that are worth calling out. So they call out that 61% of employees have experienced mental health issues due to work or where work was a related factor. 61% of employees, that's more than six out of 10. I can do lots of fractions here. It's more of a three out of five. It's more of a nine out of 15. I wonder how far I could go anyway. So it's very, you know, it's very common. 61% is a huge number. So it's worth, you know, worth being aware of that. The next thing here is that, if we expand that and say, let's look at formal, formally diagnosed mental health conditions, well, what the report says is about a third of a UK workforce have been formally diagnosed with a mental health condition at some point. So that's one in three, right? I mean, that's, again, it's a huge number one in three. And then the next thing about prevalence that's worth calling out is that 6% of employees have been living with a formally diagnosed condition for more than 10 years. I mean, that's a long time, and that's more than one in 20 people. You know, if you're an organization of a small organization with 20 people, then somebody in your organization, statistically, will have been living with a formally diagnosed mental health condition for more than 10 years. And I think people aren't aware of a prevalence of mental health in the UK workplace. And as I said, I'm sure that this is in line with other nations as well. So that's a little bit of statistics about prevalence. Then I wanted to call out two statistics about what this means for people, I guess, and our relationship with this. The first one is to do with employees. So we talked earlier about the importance of having conversations about mental health, and what the report says is that of a minute, based on their research, 54% of employees feel comfortable talking generally in the workplace about mental health issues. So that's that's an improvement, and the report actually says that mental health has a. Much higher profile than it did a generation ago. But the job is far from done. You'll notice that about 54% is is about talking generally in the workplace about mental health issues. I'm not sure what that number would be for people speaking about their own mental health issues in the workplace. My guess is it would be lower, but that's a supposition. The next thing I wanted to call out from a statistical perspective, is this statistic, which I think is hugely powerful and and speaks to how much we need to try and change the workplace. In the report, I say that 64% of managers have had to put the interests of their organization above staff well being at some point, right, and there's all kinds of ambiguity about what exactly we mean by staff well being and put above and all that kind of stuff. But nonetheless, that's pushing two thirds of people who are managing others who feel that they have need at points in their career to put their organizations above the well being of the people in their teams. What do you think about those stats? Well,

I'd love to say I'm surprised. I'm not. I'd love to say it's shocking. I can't, having worked in an organization that's been very open about speaking about these things, and also works an organization where they weren't so open, because it was a little while ago, and then they're probably very open. I just, it just doesn't surprise me. I don't it's harder for me to name people I know that have never had this experience once they're a certain age personally experience mental health issues. And we're all

very close people, very close to them. It's very hard for me to think of people that I know well enough and who would have disclosed and you haven't Yeah, either about themselves or someone very close to them, in their team or in their team or in their personal lives. So, yeah, it doesn't surprise me at all. I think, I think it's ridiculously important that we get better at talking about it, because I think that's half the battle. Yeah, I don't think it's all the battle. I understand that, but I do know that when you don't feel foolish, or frightened, because it's normal, it's become somehow more manageable. Certainly, it was for me. Yeah, massively. Being able to talk about stuff is helpful well, but also just not thinking you're the only person in the world feeling like feeling stigmatized or alone or so. So, yeah,

I just, I don't think it's a bad thing. I can't see how, how US acknowledging this stuff is a bad thing. Yeah,

yeah. I can't either. I can't either, but that's where we are with some of this. So hopefully those stats give you a bit of an insight into, at least for UK. As I said, I've not, you know, delved into where other countries are and what they're like, but I'm pretty sure they're fairly similar. I would, I would have said, I guess so. Let's jump on to the first of the two models I really want to use today to reflect on and this one is mental well being and mental illness model. Now, again, if we go back to that world health organization definition at the beginning, it said that mental health is not just the absence of mental disorder. It is defined as a state of well being in which every individual realizes his or her own potential. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, a bit more after that. Now what this mental well being and mental illness model is what I want to touch on. It's basically another two by two grid model, right? It's basically another Boston matrix two by two model window, whatever you want to call it, and it's got two dimensions, and those dimensions call out the different things defined by the World Health Organization in their definition of mental health there. So on the vertical, it talks about mental well being, and the upper pain, it describes, you know, optimal mental well being. On the lower pain, it describes minimal mental well being. And it knows that there's a continuum that this isn't, you know, a binary situation, but that's the top end is optimal, the bottom end is minimal. Then, of course, the horizontal on the left hand side, it talks about a maximum mental illness. And on the right, it talks about minimal mental illness. And the reason I like this model is it's got these two different dimensions in it, and it provides these four different outcome states that we can think of loosely as individuals inhabiting. And I think this is really helpful for us. So I'm going to start at the bottom left quadrant and work my way to the upper right quadrant. So in the bottom left quadrant what we have is we have individuals who are experiencing maximum mental illness and who are experiencing minimal mental well being. So individuals in this quadrant experience really low well being and ability to cope with the stresses and strains of life, as well as having low levels of sorry, as well as having high levels of mental illness. And this is predominantly things that are identified as actually diagnosed mental illnesses. Yeah, so that's the bottom left quadrant. If we go up from there, there, what we find is that we can get individuals with a maximum mental illness, however, also experiencing optimum or high levels of mental well being. And what it's worth calling out about this quadrant is that, you know, these are people who can have diagnosed, sometimes very serious mental illnesses. However, they're also in a position in which they have high levels of mental well being. So they're managing their illness. They might be prescribed to certain things. They are looking after themselves in such a way that while they are officially diagnosed as mentally ill, they can cope with the daily stresses and strains of their lives to an extent that means that they have a good level of mental well being. So sometimes I think people aren't appreciative of the fact that you can be mentally ill and still have a reasonable level of mental well being. If we jump diagonally down to the bottom right quadrant, then this is a situation in which individuals have minimal mental well being, but they also have minimal levels of mental illness. So these are people who are not diagnosed with mental illnesses, who have good mental you know, mental health, I guess, in the non ill interpretation of the word, but they still have low levels of mental well being. And in this quadrant, what you find is you find people who are experiencing low levels of well being, a lack of an ability to cope well with everyday stresses and strains of life, but they don't have any diagnosis. So a lot of people, I think, in work, who are experiencing stress, anxiety and things like that as a result of their work, will find themselves drifting towards this quadrant where they've yet to be diagnosed, or may never be diagnosed, with a mental illness, but who are experiencing low levels of mental well being. And then if we go to the top right quadrant, this is where people have minimal mental illness and optimum or high levels of mental well being. And this is the quadrant where, you know, a lot of people kind of aspire to be there is no diagnosis, and people are well able to cope with the stresses and strains of life, and are in a generally well positioned high levels of mental well being. Have you seen that sort of matrix mental well being and illness model? Weirdly,

I don't think I have no which is why, actually, when you shared it with me, I was like, oh, where's that from? And I'm sure I've had it explained to me in that way, but I just don't remember seeing it like that, but it makes total sense, and I think it's important to understand the difference. And I also think I mean, rightly or wrongly, I think about my mental health and other people's mental health in the same way as I think about physical health, if I do not exercise. This is me, not if I don't even exercise, if I eat certain things rather than other certain things. I am aware I am not in peak physical health. And I'm not talking about running marathons like you, although that's brilliant. I'm talking about I don't feel great in my body. My body does not feel healthy. It takes me a little bit longer to get up the hill. I get a bit sweatier. I just My body's not working as well, right? And so for me, my mind is the same, yeah. I feel like, if that it's not getting certain important things and nutrients and light and fun and love and all of the things really important, yeah, it's got to be exactly, exactly nourished. That's perfect. Thank you. That's what I meant. So, yeah, so for me, it makes good sense that the idea is that you can have deteriorating mental well being. That's not necessarily the same thing. And I think it's important to understand

that, just as a shout out, I actually got this model at some training I did, or I first saw it at some training I did with part of a mind organization years ago. And when I looked for it when I was putting some prep together first, I couldn't actually find an original sort of reference for it, but it's a useful model. It is. So I thought I'd jump it in all right. The next model I want to call out is something called the mental health continuum model. And I like this because it's got some signs around how people's mental health is what state your mental health is in, and it's also got some actions that you can take it with different stages, and I think that's useful for people. So this model breaks down mental health into four different levels, I guess, four different mental health states that you can be in. And for each one of these states, there are some signs that you might be in that state, and for each one of these areas, there are also some actions that individuals can take in these states to help them achieve the best outcomes where they can for themselves. So the states are healthy reacting injured and ill. Obviously, healthy is the highest level of mental health and wellbeing and Ill is the lowest. So I'm going to go through the signs, and then I'm going to go through the actions. So for healthy the types of things that are signs of being in a healthy place include normal fluctuations in mood. You know, you can be sad, you can be angry, all those types of things, but it's just a normal fluctuation. You have normal sleeping pattern. And you're physically well and generally energetic. Your performance is consistent in work and other duties as it usually is. It's consistent with who you are and what your normal performance is. And you take part in a normal level of social activity, you're kind of at your benchmark. And that sounds that you're in a healthy mental place if you're starting the journey towards a less great place, you move towards the reacting stage. And this is when you're starting to react to things and and things aren't as good as they were. And here people potentially become nervous, irritable, and maybe, you know, slightly extended sadness. So these are not normal fluctuations, which is slight extension of these types of feelings. People start to have trouble sleeping. People start to be feeling tired. On a longer term, with lower energy, maybe muscle tension, maybe headaches. People start procrastinating to things, and people potentially have decreased social activity. So they're not, you know, fully withdrawn, but they're just doing a bit less. So there's signs of reacting. If people then get to the stage where their mental health is potentially considered injured, they start to experience potentially anxiety, anger, pervasive sadness, maybe feelings of hopelessness. People start to be restless and have really disturbed sleep. As opposed to just trouble sleeping, they start to experience fatigue. You know that extended tiredness, aches, physical pains, are often linked to mental, you know, ill health as well. So people start to experience physical pain. There's really a decrease in performance at work. You get things like presenteeism, where people are there but not really doing things, maybe they're all ours, but delivery is lower. And then you start to get things like social avoidance and withdrawal. So this is, you know, indications that people are really starting to be injured. They're not yet really ill, but they're on their way. And then when, when people are ill, there are some other signs that kick in as well. So people start to experience excess anxiety, rage, depression. People become unable to fall asleep or unable to stay asleep. People get exhausted, physically and mentally, and you start to get physical illness as well, so things like colds, but also other things, you know, protracted aches and pains people are unable to perform their duties, and where injured people are present at work and demonstrating presenteeism. With illness, you start to get the switch to absenteeism. And then from a social perspective, you potentially see isolation and people avoiding social events. So those are, I guess, some of the signs. Have you seen stuff like that before, in terms of not in

that grid? But yes, and I think I recognize some of the language that is used when you're trying to encourage people to use language in a certain way, I certainly recognize signs from various people, including myself. Yeah, I do. I absolutely do. And I different, and sometimes I have to think about it. So we did an episode last week about self awareness. And for me, there's some stuff about understanding when things are normal, even if they are not perfect, and there is a definite, does that make sense? So there are times when they talk about normal fluctuations in mood. I'm not always in the best of moods. Sometimes that's got nothing to do with but I do. I do have to sense check it. Yeah, you need to know what's normal for you, don't

you? Yeah, yeah, I do so, so I think that's helpful. It's not as I say. I've not seen it as a model before, but I think the more that I see written down, get adequate food, get adequate rest, get some sleep, get adequate exercise, the more it acts as a constant reminder to me that that is what is required of a person To keep them healthy, mentally and physically.

Well, let's run through some of those actions quickly and just cover this off, and then we'll carry on. So So for each one of these levels in the mental health continuum model, there are set of actions that people can take as well. So when people are healthy, the proposed or suggested actions are focusing on the task at hand, breaking your problems into manageable chunks, identifying and nurturing support systems around you and maintaining a healthy lifestyle. So, you know, do good stuff. Basically, there's nothing too specific in there, but it's worth calling those out when people get to the reacting stage. So that's the, I guess, the first step down in mental health actions that are recommended are trying to recognize your limit, so know when you're pushing yourself too much, making sure that you get adequate rest, food and exercise, engaging in healthy coping strategies. And I think they put it in healthy because things like, you know, smoking and drinking and eating too much, they're not healthy. But there are other healthy coping strategies you can have and then starting to identify and minimize the stress. Sisters that are impinging on your good health. So those are actions for reacting when you get to injured. There are another series of actions. So here they say that you should start to identify and understand your own signs of distress. So again, that links to the self awareness piece quite well. You should speak to people, talk with someone. It says potentially, you should seek help. So that could be professional help. If you're you're at the stage where that seems right, and you should seek social support instead of withdrawing. So you should try and overcome some of those inclinations to withdraw and actually get support from people as well. And then when you get to the ill stage of mental health, the advice is fairly clear. You should seek professional help, right? So if you're at that stage, just seek professional help. You should make sure that you fall over professional advice and recommendations that you receive from your GP or health worker or doctor, whoever it happens to be, and you should really focus on regaining your physical and mental health. So that's the mental health continuum model, a series of signs ranging from healthy, reacting injured and ill, each supported with a series of actions ranging from healthy reacting injured and ill. And I kind of like that model. I think it's good that it shows different levels, and it shows a potential progression from healthy to ill with things that people can do at all stages. So I think that's quite good. Overall thoughts.

One very specific one, yeah, okay, so I work in, I've worked a lot in the sports sector, and we get a lot of pushback from people when we try and help them get physically active. Okay, oh, I don't want to, you know, I'm not going to run around. Suddenly, I'm 45 years old. I've never done that my life. Why would I do it now? Just

on that just before you go, I did a run a couple days ago, and I overheard a conversation at the beginning, and it was a woman saying how proud she was, but she was there, and she didn't start running till she was 47 so anyway, I'll just check that out

there. Yeah, and there are, and there are brilliant people who do that, but I think my sector has been guilty of not really explaining well enough, and they do now, but it took a long time of what physical exercise means. Yeah, yeah. I currently, even though I love my sport, I don't own a pair of trainers at the moment, right? However, I do own a pair of walking boots, yeah? And I do walk to sit the town, which is half an hour away, rather than get the bus. Yeah, and I really, I think it's really important to understand that exercise is about. So my, my partner's not British and so, and she's a German father, and he refers, she always tells me that, from his story of you, you have to get a good Schmitz every day. Fits little sweat on, yeah, okay, so get a little sweaty. That's all that matters. So even if that's walking briskly and walking brisky with a backpack on that, so you know, when you might have got the bus. And I just think that's I just want to call that out, because sometimes when we talk about exercise, people can go, Oh, that's not mean. And I think it's really important that if you put a pair of shoes on and walk out the door when you would have got in the car, yeah, that's it, right there, you're doing it, yeah. Particularly, you know, they

talk about this kind of stuff on the radio sometimes here as well. And they say that even things like, you know, moderately active housework can be exercised, you know, I mean, for the right so I

get my classic is changing the beds. Yeah, I find it relatively irritating. Well, you do because you like get stuck inside. Maybe not that, but no housework. Gardening is amazing, yeah. So gardeners, if they look after their knees, are usually really in partnership, because they're very flexible, or they've maintained their flexibility quite well, and it's something like, that's great. Don't, don't assume, yeah,

yeah. Cool. All right, what we're going to do now is just a quick review of something, but we actually talked about in our episode on resilience, and this is, I guess, some things you can do in the moment when maybe you're in a place of work and something happens and it puts you into a sub optimal place, a place where you're not being your best. So this is just something to think about. If we're just going to cover it quickly, if you want to hear properly about it, you can go back to that episode on resilience from series two. And so there are two things we're going to cover here. We're going to cover something called the ABC model, and then someone called the ETC model as well. So the ABC model basically says that when you're in a situation, an event will happen, that's an activating event or a trigger, that will combine with a set of beliefs that you have in your self talk. And the combination of an activating event and the beliefs will lead you to a choice or a consequence or a response. And really what this message is, what this model is trying to call out is that all around you, they're activating events. Somebody turns up late, somebody gives you some feedback on something, something that you do, you forget to press send on, or whatever it is. So all these little events are out there, but the consequences of them and the way that. So you respond to them as a result, partly of that event itself, but to some extent, it's more of a response to your beliefs and the self talk and the way that you think through that process. So the model is just calling out the combination of triggers, beliefs and self talk. And the real call out is the power of a beliefs and the power of a self talk and and if you can manage that belief process and that self talk and the way that you think through these situations, you'll be better able to reach better outcomes for yourself. And this is really true in all works of life, but particularly true in work as well. So one little model that you can use to help you manage through that sort of belief process and the self talk process, if something happens that is unhelpful is to use this model that's known as the ETC model. It's used in various different areas, different models that are similar to this with similar names. But what this stands for, really, is emotion, truth and unconscious choice. An obvious model says is that if something happens and it sort of triggers you to be in a bad mental state to be sort of emotionally flooded or overwhelmed by something, or angry or stressed or whatever it happens to be in work, then you should do a couple different things. The first thing you should do is this stage E, which is for emotion. So first, you should acknowledge your thoughts and feelings without judging them, and just say, you know, gosh, I'm angry about this. I know I'm angry, I can tell, but I'm in an angry state, right? And then you just kind of acknowledge that and say, Okay, that's what it is. I'm in this angry state for X, Y and Z reasons, but I'm angry. And let's just take that and sort of acknowledge that. Then what we need to say is, okay, well, we've dealt with the emotion piece. Let's go on and look at the truth around what's really happening. So you kind of take a deep breath and say, Okay, well, I've got all this emotional stuff going on. What's the real truth behind this? And here you start to look at helpful things and maybe reflect on last time I was in a situation like this, X happened. Or the truth is that somebody probably just misspoke. They didn't mean to insult me or whatever it happens to be, and look for helpful truths that you can rely on, and use that sort of focusing on truth as a way to come back to your rational mind from your emotional response. And then, once you've done some reflecting on that helpful truth, take a bit of a deep breath, reflect on it for a minute, and then try and make a decision or take a response based on that helpful truth, as opposed to your initial emotional response to a triggering event. So that's the ETC model. It basically says, acknowledge your emotions, try and park your emotions, focus on a helpful truth, return to your rational mind and make a conscious choice and action based on that helpful truth as opposed to your emotions. Have you done stuff? I know we've talked about this before. Do you use stuff like that in your life or

not as it's laid out? But yes, but not as it's laid out. I don't think would be fair. It would be it would be untrue for saying that's how I use it. But I think it's useful. And I think with all of this stuff, and I know we're going to talk in a few weeks about things like self regulation and also personal effectiveness, I think with all of this stuff, it's about finding this is not like finding true tests. This is about finding models that work for you totally. So lots of stuff is about learning, going on the journey of exploration about this stuff, understanding it for you and then adapting it. So I see elements of it in what I do, but it's all bespoke to me. Yeah, because I've had to shape it around what helps me understand what's going on.

And, you know, I've, like, I've delivered stuff like this in leadership programs and other things and, and my view is probably the same as yours, and that it's got to be a personal thing. But also, I think for the people that I've worked with, while they may not follow the model, knowing that things like this are out there is helpful in itself. So it helps them understand the power of emotions, the power of rational thought and, and, but, you know, they need to count to 10 before they make a decision, right? That kind of stuff is kind of what's going on here. Okay, that's nearly it for research Roundup. I guess the last thing I wanted to call out were just a bit of a key thought on all this, which is that, you know, loads and loads of people experience mental health related problems. It's really common purpose. Stats, we saw that 61% of people in work have and you know, we don't always openly discuss these things. A lot of people don't talk about them. And if we do, we talk about them in different ways to our approach to physical health. And I guess you know, both Jane and I have been in situations where we've been stressed or anxious as a result of our work, and we've certainly worked with a lot of people who've been like that, and we just wanted to call out, but we really think it's important to try and open up some of our conversations about mental health, to normalize these things, to try and strip out some stigma, and just to recognize that a lot of people go through this stuff. Have you gotten. Other thoughts on that bit there about key messages from this bit?

No, I think you're really spot on. I just, you know, I don't like I said earlier. I don't know many people who don't either come up against this with someone that's really close to them, or working closely with them or experiencing it themselves. Yeah, and I don't. I, for a long time, I felt like a fake for saying I had some experience of it, because it's tiny, yeah, it's relative. It was a short period thus far, yes, it was, well, yeah. And thus far, it was a short period of my life. And it does not, at the moment, seem to be in any way coming back to me, right? So I feel a little bit cheeky saying, Oh yes, I've got some experience. Do you know what I mean? I mean? I feel like I'm some way taking away from people who've got Yes, yes, listen to me. Proper. No, it's all proper, right? But, but have some some longer term stuff, yeah? But I would also say that my experience of it, while brief, mercifully, gave me a entirely different perspective, and I think that's been really helpful for me, because I'm much I'm much more conscious, and I've had, I've had two separate incidences around it, and I think, I think recognizing that all the advice in the world sometimes falls on deaf ears, even though you believe it to be true, yeah, is really important, and that you are not the only person who does that. And so for me, for a long time, the first time, I had some challenges, I really struggled to acknowledge that. In fact, I'm not even sure I did until I was coming out the other end. And I also didn't talk to anyone, yeah, and I didn't talk to anyone way too late, because I didn't know who to talk to, yeah. And what I should have done was sat down and looked at the cold, hard heart of who my friends are, not, who is closest, who is the best person to talk to this and instead, I didn't talk to anyone. No, that was just really stupid, but it's completely understandable, because that's what everyone does first time it happens. That's what everyone does. Yeah? And I was like, I can fix this. I can totally fix it. I'm self reliant, or whatever. And what I would say is, the one thing I would say is that it's never too late to talk to someone about it, yeah, like, it's you I talked to them, when I talked to someone, when I was coming out of it, and I felt a bit silly, but, but still, I still feel better because now they know that it happens, and if I go back, I can so yeah, I guess that would be my thing, just, you know, be it, be conscious. If it's happening to happen to you, you don't have to apologize for it being smaller than everyone else's or anything like

that. Is that, would you say that's a tale from a keyboard, or would you like to do definitely

not a tale from the keyboard. That's just, that's just me adding a frame to some of the stuff that we've read about. I just, I guess my point around that stuff is that I just read loads of stuff and I didn't really do anything about it, because I was like, Oh yeah, I don't need any help first

time. So my story from the keyboard, I guess, would be, it's funny at all, but my story from the keyboard would be around a period of my time where I was going through transition at work. So I was leaving one organization and changing where I was get what I was doing, and I experienced anxiety for the first, what I believed to be the first time in my life, and I had had a period of, I don't know whether you'd call it depression, but it weren't good, and it wasn't very long, and I'm not going to claim it's anything, but I'd had a period where I was a bit like down, and it wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't down, like temporary. It was, it was down, down, and I needed to do something about it. But I hadn't ever experienced anxiety until a couple of years ago, and it was horrible, and it was weird, and I didn't know what it was, because it was so foreign to me. Yeah, and the only thing it felt like was a feeling I'd once a couple had a couple of times after in my 20s and early 30s, where I drunk too much, and the next morning I'd have like paranoia. That was the only way I could really describe it, because it wasn't that but it wasn't that, but it felt close, yeah. And so I was really, really struggling with and I didn't know who to tell Yeah. I think I was like, it wasn't like, I mean, it wasn't really my life, yeah, it wasn't nothing. Was terrible, yeah. So I didn't, I just kind of thought, Well, maybe it's just, you know, nothing, yeah. And, and then I felt really stupid, because I was like, come on, this is silly. If someone else said this to you, you wouldn't say that. No, you wouldn't, would you? And yeah, and I the thing for me was it was the second time as to say it happened in my life that I'd had something, something that wasn't right, yeah, in this space, and it was astonishing the second time how much easier it was for me to tell people event like it took me a few weeks, but to just go and I felt and I don't think that's about me. I think that's about the way the world's changed, okay? And I think my special request would be to people who are a little bit in my age bracket and above, and I'm 43 this year. Who maybe perceive this change in talking to be a younger person's thing? Sure, okay and think that they still have particularly got kids that they can't disclose or share. I can only promise you, from where I'm sitting, that it's good to talk about it, and it's going to be okay to talk about it, as long as you don't rush out and tell everyone, pick the people you trust, and you can start in little baby steps. So I never went in. I never, like, my conversation was never, hey, I think I might have anxiety. That's not a conversation. Instead, I would built up to it with like, you know, I woke up and I really didn't sleep well last night. That's not like me, and I don't really, and I would sound people out just like I would with anything else in my life, yeah, and see where they were. And then suddenly someone went, Oh, that's happened to me exactly. It turned out I was because I was menopausal, and I started having anxiety, and this is what it felt like. And sometimes I was like, oh, that sounds a little anxiety. Bit, sounds a bit familiar. And then I went Googled everything. And I guess, I guess the bit that the story, and the bit I'm trying to say is, if don't, don't ignore it. Just Just, just don't sit there and think, Oh, well, this is just going to disappear or go away or get worse. Yeah, explore it, and it's scary and it hurts, and it's scary to sit and think about why you feel that way, but it will help you articulate it to whoever you go to for help, and even if you don't need help, because it turns out it's quite small and you manage it on your own, it will help. You know, what's Google, yeah, or any other search engine?

Yeah, any other search engine?

So, yeah. So that's my story, and I feel a bit silly not having talked about it, but I also feel a bit silly talking about it because it's not, it wasn't very, very long period. Yeah, so that's kind of weird. That's

all helpful stuff. I mean, you know, like you, I've had, I guess, episodes of high levels of anxiety at various points in my life, and I speak about them to certain people, but not to everyone. And I think there's a bit of an extra layer of guys finding it harder to talk about feelings anyway, let alone being able to talk about stuff like this, right? I

went on a massive rant on Friday night, because I don't know how you be a guy in this world right now and be a good guy and know what you're doing and how to talk about it. And still, I just, I think it's so hard to talk about this stuff, and I think there's different expectations still, from society, yeah. And you know this that's beared out, I'm certainly in the

UK, yeah, yeah, and lots of places, right? I mean, it's hard, and it shouldn't be hard to talk about, but it is, and you don't know who you can talk about these things with, and you don't know, you know they're not things that you can talk about in groups. And a lot of guys do stuff in groups, or it's certainly harder to raise in a group, right? I mean, it's just a harder thing to do. But again, that's not what I was really going to talk about initially. But like you, I've had experiences like that, and I've actually gone and I've spoken to counselors about things as a result of things like that, and that's been helpful for me. You know, sort of spoken therapies are helpful. And again, like you, so many people I know have been involved in or experienced mental health challenges themselves or in their immediate families or friend groups. But what I was actually going to say for my keyboard was about my keyboard, for my test from a keyboard, was in the various teams where I've been managing and working with people I've had a really surprisingly high number of people who've experienced stress or anxiety related difficulties and absences from work, and it's really not that uncommon. You know, a lot of the people that I've worked with have been at various stages longest journey, and some have taken time out as a result. Some haven't, but they're all still good people, right? I mean, this isn't a defining thing, so I just, I guess wanted to use that to reiterate the prevalence of things like this in work. So I guess that's my tell from a keyboard. Any tips from you?

I don't know that's really tough. What's my tip? I don't know tips feels wrong somehow. Yeah, I'm not one to give advice on this stuff. I'm a baby. I'm a learner. I guess all I would say to people working in environments that shape culture some HR leaders is, if you start talking about this more, you'll see an increase Absolutely, and that's a good thing. Yeah, you work, what you'll see is an increase of smaller things and less of the big things, because you'll see people talking about it more, and therefore they'll disclose and the reality is, there aren't more things. It's just that you're more aware of them because people feel more comfortable. And actually, what you should be thinking, if you see it go up when you start talking about this more is, wow, look at the things people weren't talking Yeah, yeah, yeah. I work. I've worked with a CEO who's incredibly articulate about this stuff and passionate, and I've just watched people get so much more comfortable about admitting where they are. And I just and just to state the blindingly obvious, not one of them is any. Way, not brilliant at their job, and not in one of them in any way doesn't understand how to share that information that's helpful to their teams as well. They're all brilliant at it. They work at it, and it's hard. And so for all the ones that talk about it, and there'll be loads that don't, they're aware that they're doing it on behalf of people who maybe aren't ready, yeah, yeah. Sort of trailblazing

it, I guess my tip is, you know, we mentioned lots of resources at the start of this episode, things like Ellie friends and the mind website and other things like that. Those are all out there. If you want to start looking at the things like this as they relate to you. If they do, I'd work on this. And I guess a bit of a bolt on bolt on tip is that if you're in work and you're feeling some of the challenges that are raised through mental health, it's worth speaking to your boss about it, or speaking to your line manager, or speaking to somebody in HR. A lot of organizations have things like employee assistance programs, and some have, you know, private insurance arrangements that provide support for mental related issues. They might be counseling sessions, they might be other things, but help is out there. So you know, if you feel that it's the right thing for you to do, I'd hardly recommend speaking to people about it and and trying to get the help and support that you need. And I guess that's my tip, so I'd give that a go. Cool. So if we jump on, should we just start to get to the end? It's

a bit of a hard I don't know James, for the first time in five series, I think you might have forgotten something. What have I done? List of the week? Oh, my goodness, should we do a list of the week? Yeah, oh gosh, I've been sitting here nicely. Well, you know, I

must have a list of the week. You know what? I must have been really anxious about this whole episode?

No, I do you know what it is genuinely. I suspect just those of you, if you've heard any noise in the background, one of the reasons I got a dog was because I find it really good for my well being. But one of the challenges of having a dog is that she doesn't really understand when we're podcasting, so occasionally she makes little squeaks in the background. So I suspect James has been James has been staring at it, staring at my dog, going list of the weeks really quick. One, dead easy. And it's about people in the public eye, because some people would consider successful people who have experienced either disclosed mental health challenges, or who are well known and well documented. And I guess the point of it is to point out that they, there's all sorts of people. It's quite a broad, broad range. And so in no particular order, I'm going to list the people and the conditions that they've either shared disclosed, and they're massively on a spectrum of things we've talked about, but also some of the stuff we haven't covered, which is some of the more life long conditions. So we have Oprah Winfrey with post traumatic stress disorder and anxiety. We have Charlize Theron, actress with PTSD as well and also OCD Brian Wilson, who shared around his bipolar apparently. And James found this one. So I can bear no claim to it, but apparently Abraham Lincoln suffered depression. Yeah, in a few places, yeah. Mark

Twain, there's a number of things that have been ascribed a number of conditions. Stephen King has talked about depression, as has J K Rowling, very openly. Carrie Fisher has talked she passed away recently, but she talked about bipolar. Dwayne The Rock Johnson, who weirdly, is becoming a little bit of my hero. Surprisingly, surprisingly

number of things he's talked about his depression, but he is like, if you ever want to be surprised by someone and show your own biases up, go, go. Have a look at the sort of things he talks about. Because he's, he's a really interesting guy. Yeah, he's not what you think. No, it's really cool. And yet he is, yeah, like, there's some parts of him that he really, anyway, I could go on about that. He's, like,

one of the most influential people in the world on our verse lists. Now he's, like, way up there, yeah.

And part of that is a cultivating thing, but part of it is he talks a lot of sense. Yeah, I can't believe I'm saying that. But anyway, so, Jim Carrey, who is now was an actor, is an actor still, I think, but is an artist as well. Very well respected artist as well, I believe. And he's talked about ADHD and depression, and also, probably most famously, Prince Harry, certainly the UK and some some countries, he really the most famous, and Prince Harry, has very articulately talked about how mental health conditions affected him and his family, and does an enormous amount of work with his brother and his wife and his sister in law and his whole family to raise the issue, including things like heads together, which they got a number of charities to work together for last year. So I and he also does amazing things with military as well. So it's just kind of gives you a flavor of the breadth of kind of successful people with various different careers that have have coped and have pretty successfully dealt with it. And I'm not saying, you know, it's been a none of them, I don't think. When they've talked about it. So it's better roses, but they get there, and I guess that gets and, you know, I know it's easier when you've got money and time and people are invested in you, but it's kind of hopeful, right? Yeah, totally can talk about it, right?

I mean, all of this is going on at all levels of success and in all careers and all kinds of walks of life, really. So, yeah, cool. So

the one thing I would guess I'd just say yet again, I know we've said it a million times, is we are not professionals. None of the people I've just mentioned are professionals. Don't be tweeting them, asking them for advice, unless you particularly can find something that you relate to. But most importantly, if you do need to talk to someone, if you do want to find out more information, there's loads of great places that you can find information. We've mentioned mind a couple of times. There's also an organization called blurt blurt it out.org which is another UK organization. Or just talk to your talk to your health professional, yeah, right, and ask them. You don't have to tell them what's going on if you're not ready, but just ask them where they would go for

advice. Yeah, good message. Cool. Well, thanks for getting me back on track. There we were nearly having a disaster. I think that just leaves us time to check out and remind people that they can get in touch with us at the website. That's www. Dot, World of work.io. You can get in touch with us on all the usual social media places. Best one is Twitter at the WoW podcast. We're on Twitter quite a bit. And yeah, write us a review on iTunes if you get a chance,

or just let us know on Twitter, and then we'll, we'll put it on for you, or we'll put it on our website. Yeah, so if you do, if there's anything you want to tell us, that's good about it. About any other episodes, yeah, feedbacks always great. Always let us know on Twitter. Suggestions for topics, yeah, it helps it. Oh, suggestions for topics that noise was suggestion. Oh, that's the noise my dog makes when she wants to go out. Suggestions topics would be

great. Yeah, cool. All right. Well, let's leave it there. I think it's been an interesting and important episode, so hopefully it's helpful. So let's just say goodbye, goodbye from me and goodbye from me.