E015: Wellbeing

This is the world of work podcast with James and James, hi. This is all right, onto the podcast.

Hi. This is James and Jane, and here we are again with another episode of The World of Work podcast. Episode 15. Exciting. I remember my 15th birthday. It was a big deal. It's a big deal, right? 15th, big deal, right? Yeah, yeah. Halfway to 20. Who knows where we're gonna end? Halfway to 20, between 10 and 20, halfway between 10 and halfway, yeah, for a minute I was worried about your advocacy class back in the day. Yeah, that's fair. So today, we're doing well being it's a topic that I think it's probably close to both of our hearts, really. I mean, we both are interested in the whole sort of organizational

health type of thing, and the way people are and work, and what work means for people and so well, being is a really important part of that. As ever, we've got some slides that you'll be able to follow along with if you've got them in advance, or if not, you can check them out later. They're at our website, www dot the WoW podcast.org, you can check out a bit more about us there, or you can

engage with us on Twitter. We're at the WoW podcast, and we also post a link to the slides on there. And actually, James is absolutely right, this is a subject that is we've kind of deliberately left it a little while because it's quite important. We wanted to figure out what we were going to say, but I would encourage you to tell us what you think. Maybe it'd be really nice to share some of your top tips. So when we do our top tips at the end, I'll try and remember to remind you guys to post something on Twitter. Because I think top tips around well being and resilience, well being and mental health and all of that sort of stuff is really helpful. Yeah, you can't really have enough top tips. I mean, it's such a an important and I think every like, you know, we're brilliant, but we're all different. And so if you can find top tips from loads of different types of people, yeah, chances are you're going to find one that might work, yeah, yeah. That's really important. It's kind of a bespoke thing, yeah, which is good, all right. So what we're going to do today is what we do every day. We're going to run into some definitions, do a bit of discussion around some definitions, then have a bit of a round up of a research we've done in a research round up. Then we'll share a list of a week for you. The list of a week this week is around things you can do to increase your well being. So there's some good stuff in there. Then a couple of stories from a keyboard, a few final thoughts, and then we'll check out. So that's us. So would you like to kick us off with some definitions? I'd love to get some definitions, but before we do, in a sense, the theme of well being, how you doing? I'm doing pretty well. You might be able to tell I've got a bit of a cold, right? So I've had had the Snuffles this week, so maybe I've not been looking after myself quite as well as I should be. But otherwise, I'm doing really well. I've had a nice week. I've done some more coaching sessions, and actually, we're recording this in December,

and it's getting to be time for Christmas. So we've had a good time seeing people and doing a bit of sort of Christmas festivity as well as sorted so that's nice. There's your top tip. Listeners, number one, always ask people how they do, yeah? Just helps them out of it. Yeah.

I'm really, really good. I am for those of you, you've now mentioned, we're in December. That's the end of term for me in my masters. So I am one day on from having done my first exam in 25 years. It's incredible, which has completely blown. I'm not going to lie, it's completely messed with my head, I'm sure. So I am kind of not thinking about it at the moment, because I don't get results for like eight weeks. But yeah, please don't. Least did it. So that's really good, you know, I finally got into an exam thinking I understand the material. So that's, that's one, that's one up, yeah. So moving on to definitions for well being. So interestingly, for those of you

don't know, we both could look at some different definitions, and then James tends to pull them together into a list. Them together into a list. James has gone very Cambridge this week, right? So just assume for the entire the entire next three or four minutes, everything's coming out the Cambridge dictionary, but the definitions we're going to give you around the things that we probably think are most closely related to the topic and you might not be familiar with, or that get used in general everyday use, and maybe we don't. We're not always clear about how we're using those words. So the first is well being, and Cambridge defines the state of feeling healthy and happy. And I think that's really, really important, that the word happy is in there, because

happiness is a very indefinable thing. It is massively um, but it would be, I think, naive not to recognize that, ultimately, a sense of happiness is what people are all really doing, and everyone has different ideas of what that is and whether it's about financial security and whether it's about being loved, whatever. But ultimately, that sense of feeling helps.

In your body and in your mind, happy with the world that you're around is what comes together to well being, in my view. And sometimes I agree with you, I think happiness is a scaler. So sometimes I struggle with the word happy, because sometimes I think it's almost unachievable to be at the very end of that side of the happiness scale all the time. So sometimes I think more about contentedness in terms of a goal. So again, that's that's just so it's funny because I, you talk about it scaler, and I talk about it as,

in my head, it's not okay. And there are, there are degrees of happiness, yeah. But to me, it is binary, okay. And I know that's not for everyone but me, I generally, there's a there's a midpoint, and I don't like being on the midpoint, yeah, because I'm not that kind of person. I like to be, I like to feel, yeah. And so if I'm happy, I just mean I'm in a positive place. Fine, okay, that positive place is different. Yeah, it is. I guess for a lot of people, it's completely a scale of things, yeah, yeah. And it's easy to think, are you happy? Now? Am I happy? And one of the other things, and we we should do a whole episode on happiness, I genuinely think we should. One of the things that I think happens is that people turn happiness almost into an aspirational thing. And, you know, the world promotes happiness, and you see happiness, and you see images of happiness extreme, right? It's extreme, and it makes you wonder if you're actually happy. Yeah, you see all this other real happiness, maybe you're not happy. So that's part of reason I fall back. And I also, I'm a big subscriber into the whole thing. You kind of have to have moments in your life that where you aren't, aren't that positive frame of mind. You want to understand and recognize it. So I would, I would wholeheartedly say that I probably recognize the more positive periods in my life and times in my life now than I did before, because I'm so conscious of the fact that there have been periods in my life, absolutely that contrast is massively powerful. So that brings us very neatly into what Cambridge define happy as, which is feeling, showing or causing pleasure or satisfaction, which I'm not going to have to argue about, because I've just said happiness is something else for me. But no, so that is, that's definition that I think is fair enough, you know, feeling, showing or causing pleasure or satisfaction. I think it's really, really interesting that it says causing pleasure. Yeah, right, yeah. That is absolutely not what I would put in a definition for happy. No, I thought it was interesting. I mean, all these definitions, I thought were kind of interesting, but I've got a few niggles almost with all of them. But, yeah, I think that's an interesting one. I think that's a really interesting and I think I think that con that, that concept of causing happy, causing pleasure, is really interesting. Yeah, resilience, again, Cambridge, the ability to be happy, successful or similar, again, after something difficult or bad has happened? Okay? I'll come back home because I definitely don't agree with that. Mental Health, the condition of someone's mind and whether or not they are suffering from any mental illness. And work life balance the amount of time you spend doing your job compared to the amount of time you spend with your family and doing things you enjoy, right? I'm sorry, James, yeah, go for it. Cambridge, sometimes I'm not happy with anything. Yeah, they're not great. So resilience is dreadful, because it's not to me. It's not about the ability to be happy or successful, yeah, it's about the ability to endure and remain undamaged or to revert back to shape. So if you think of like one of those stresses, yeah? And something pushes down that stress when it comes out of shape, it's the ability to how quickly you can come Yeah. And, you know, one of the, one of the definitions that I always like to rephrase that they used in football in England for a while. What's this word bounce back ability? Yeah, that sounds like such a sport it does, right? So we need some more bounce back ability, right? But, but that's what it is. So for me, resilience is really bounce back ability. And, and again, I think, I think you're right about bouncing back to a certain level is okay. It doesn't need to be that sort of happiness piece that comes with it. I think some people want to kind of thrive under adverse situations, and when they're talking about that in relation to resilience, then some of this language comes in, but I think it's about getting but I would also argue that someone that completely crumples under the pressure and then is able to recover from it, is not necessarily something high levels of resilience, just that they've managed to get over it, and they're probably quite well adjusted. Yeah, to me, resilience, high levels of resilience, resilience, is a measure to me, of how what levels you have an ability to be able to deal with difficult circumstances. Difficult circumstances and cope with them effectively, such that you are unchanged and things happen.

Mental Health, I'm not sure it's as straightforward as just whether or not you're suffering from mental illness in the condition of someone's mind, I think, and I realize it's very difficult to define, but to me, mental health is you uh,

it's, it's about, it's, again, it's for me, mental health is a scaler, absolutely, of all of the elements that go on in my head, yeah. And that includes the emotional side of things and where I'm feeling Yeah. And then as a work life balance, the idea.

Clear that time and the amount of time you spend doing your job compared to the amount of time that you spend with your family, is the definition of work life balance is bonkers to me. To me, work life balance is about

structuring your life such that you are you and the people around you are satisfied with the role workplace, yeah, in your life, yeah, and and that you are comfortable. And for some people, that is 90% of their time. And some people it's 10, you're absolutely right, right? Or I should say, I absolutely agree with you that it's, it's a relative, and it's a personal thing, and it's also, you know, what, I could spend loads of time with my family, doing things I can enjoy, but if my head is in the fact that my company's about to be taken over, and I'm not sure I've done all the paperwork properly, I'm not sure that's a work life balance, no? And you're not good for your family when you're there, right? It's not, you know, I might be enjoying things I enjoy, and I might be there for them, yeah, I'm not, yeah, because my head is in the office, yeah? And, you know, you get the other side of things, where sometimes people have really difficult times at home, yeah? And for some people, workplace is almost a sanctuary, right? So what's the right work life balance? Well, it's, actually, it's really interesting. You say that because, certainly,

I have worked in in a couple of companies, actually, where people have been bereaved, yeah? And you know, the conversation has been, the best conversation has been you work as much or as you literally need to, and I'm letting you know that I'll be checking in on you, yeah, because I don't want you to overdo it, yeah? But I also understand right now we might not be ready, so you take your time, yeah, when you need it, and if it's not for another month, yeah, that's fine. You just phone in the day that hits and you tell us, yeah. And to me, that's extraordinary, that's that's really understanding bereavement and saying, I get that. You know, you can't timetable it. You can't say these are the two months that you're going to struggle. Just tell us and be honest, and we'll make sure the projects fit. Yeah, and work might really help them transition. I mean, work is a powerful thing that helps people. Is unbelievably, um,

unbelievably powerful if you do have a healthy, uh, working relationship with your team, yeah, finding a non emotional sanctuary like a practical and I think that's a really interesting word, sanctuary, yeah, because it is, because, you know, if you lose someone who has been living with you or in your home,

it's not a very nice place to know you don't want to be there. And, you know, ironically, people say no, take two months off. Yeah? What are you going to do? Sit and look at the walls, yeah? Or look at their possession, yeah? So yes, I'm a big

I'm a big believer in understanding what that stuff means and actually understanding what it means for the person, because it looks different for everybody. Yeah. I Yeah, cool. So we kind of tore some of those, definitely. Yeah, I have to say, I've gone away.

Not really sure about that. Yeah, I'm also I'm not now I look at that, I'm making sure about the well being one, because I'm not sure it's straightforward as feeling healthy and happy. But I like the happiness word, so give it. Not happy with Cambridge, sorry, Cambridge. I know we had to give it a go, right? But, um, do not do a queen. I like the clean sleep concept, though. I might do another queen, clean, clean sweep. Yes, of definitely Queen sleep, which is what I thought you were talking about there, right? Okay, let's move on to research. Yeah, so just finishing up on well being, there was a good way to do it. So what we're actually going to do is we're going to do a bit of a dive into well being in a bit more detail. So we've talked there about that definition of well being, which was the state of feeling healthy and happy. And as you said, it's a bit light as a definition, right? It doesn't really provide the level of detail that we think is right. It doesn't really do justice towards well being. So what we're going to do is reflect a little bit more on it. And I guess one of the things I wanted to start with was saying that in my mind, and based on some of the things that we've seen, we think well being has a couple of different dimensions to it. I guess for me, well being has a real physical aspect to it. So an individual will have a set of physical well being from really great physical well being where they're active, they're not inhibited in anything that they do. They don't really have to think about what they do from a physical perspective. They're pain free, they're independent, all those types of things. So that's great physical well being all the way through to the inverse of that, where maybe they're in pain, or they're dependent or they're unable to do things because of their physicality. So the physical side goes between those two edges, and the other side, for me is around mental well being, right? And this is kind of different to mental health, right? But mental well being is, you know, at the positive end, it's where people are happy, they're relaxed, they feel fulfilled, they're stress free, they're not anxious. They can be their best, and that's a great place to be, but when they've got less mental well being, or lower levels of mental well being, that's when they start to exhibit signs of stress, anxiety, depression, negative thoughts, all those kinds of things, and that's a negative place to be. So So for me, thinking about these two.

Sort of relationships for physical and mental is an important way to think about well being, and I think it's worth calling out that they're often correlated, right? So, you know, good mental well being often goes with fairly good physical well being, but, but they're not fully correlated. So I guess what I mean by that is you can have great mental well being and great physical well being, that gives you great overall well being. However, you can also have great mental well being while having really low levels of physical well being. And you see that humans adjust to all kinds of things, and that's not uncommon. Likewise, you can have a really great physical well being, but really low levels of mental well being, you know, and you see this fairly, fairly often with people who are physically quite well, but maybe have higher levels of anxiety or depression or stress than they would like. So I just wanted to call out that sort of relationship between the physical and the mental. What are your thoughts on that? Is that the type of thing I think, I think probably a couple things to call out, is that long term, both of those can trigger the other. So you can it is much harder to sustain

your physical health if you're having any kind of deterioration in your mental well being. Yeah, and, you know? And similarly, I think there's a relationship in the sense that both can be used for tools for the other. So certainly, I, I

wasn't in the best place about eight years ago mentally. And I wouldn't, I wouldn't say any of them were exhibiting particular signs of concern, but without question, I was a bit, my mum would have referred to it as just a bit down, jumps. Yeah, nothing. And I just really didn't know what I was doing. And actually, the one thing I hung on to was I started, I started going to the gym, and I started running, yeah. And, you know, sometimes you you try something, you think just, I'm going to try something, Anything's better than feeling like this. And did I feel a whole heap better? No, did I feel a tiny little bit better every day? Yes. And did it give me a break from it? Yes, because for an hour a day, I was like, Wow, I'm doing something that actually is good, yeah, and it feels productive. So I think, I think the relationship is still massively being explored. There's all sorts of interesting studies going on at the moment. I think there's some incredible, interesting stories about the role of physical exercise and in the in the sort of treatment of physical illnesses? Yeah, I think there's incredible stuff around mental exercise and mental

work, so things like mindfulness classes and training stuff in the role of physical health and vice versa. So for me, I just the more that we can do to understand how people can help themselves,

the better. And I think, I think this, there's, there's so much that you can try, and it's sometimes, sometimes you have to go around the houses, right? If you're having trouble with something in your life, or you're something that you just don't feel like you're on top game. Sometimes it just feels too hard to solve that problem. But if you go around the house and try something else, and my dad used to refer to it as shake the box, yeah, okay, if you don't know what's wrong, shake the box. See how things land, and then maybe it'll give you a clue. Yeah, you try a few different things. Don't do your Christmas presents, people, no, break, no. You can tell we're in the run up to Christmas. I know, right? I was just thinking, I can imagine, like people, yeah,

okay, so, so I think those two axes are an interesting thing to think about, the physical and the mental, and the relationship between them is an important thing to think about. The other thing I wanted to touch on here, while we're still reflecting on well being is something that you found from of all places for the UK, Office of National Statistics, and they've done some work on well being. And I actually think what they've come up with is really, really good. They've identified 10 pillars on which well being is built. And I think that these are key factors that contribute towards an individual's well being. So you know, their sort of contentedness, engagement, worry, levels of stress, all that kind of stuff. And the things they came up with were the natural environment, their personal well being, their relationships, where they live, education and skills, what they do, governance of sort of society, the state of the economy, their personal finances and their health. And I think that's a really interesting list, and I'd kind of argue that all of those relate or contribute towards an individual's physical and mental well being. So I think that fits, fits pretty well with those those two axes. One of the things they do call out, which I think is great, is they say that personal well being is particularly important, and they define a little bit more by saying that it's to do with what an individual thinks that, or how an individual thinks that what they're doing is in line with something worthwhile, how that's contributing to the world, and what their day to day emotional experiences are like. So the sort of happiness and anxiety is kind of what they put into that personal well being. So I think that's.

Important one as well. I think it is, and I think it's, it's really important when you think about the fact they've got their relationship, our relationships, yeah, in there. Because I think

really, in your average day, your relationships with your immediate friends and family and your work, yeah, are so much of your life. Yeah, we're massive amounts of our life that we're contributing to, and the idea that your own personal levels of well being are heavily influenced by that, and in itself, your personal well being interacts with that. I think it's really important, yeah, but I love that. I'm totally biased. I was totally shocked that I saw it from national I knew I'd seen it somewhere, and when I went, Yeah, I couldn't believe it was from them, although it made sense because the UK Government did a whole load of people. Whole loaded piece of work after they looked at the scandal. Yeah. But I just, I love the practicality of some of the stuff on there. You know, to pretend that personal finance is not something that contributes to your well being is to completely misunderstand the the need for security and financial Yeah, it's a sort of threshold and the impact it has on your mental health, yeah, and so, yeah, I love it. I absolutely love it list. I'm sure it could be improved. I'm sure it could be worse, but the fact is, someone's actually gone and done it in government, which is rare. Yeah, it's a great list. So check it out. Look on the web. You can see it. It's useful. Okay, so what we're going to do now is we're going to have a quick rip round, rip round, rip through. I'm not exactly sure, something like whip through, whip through, that's what I'm trying to say. There we go. We're gonna have a quick whip through four different areas and think about what wellbeing means for them. So we're gonna start by talking about wellbeing and individuals. So we'll reflect there a little bit on some things that you do as an individual to improve your wellbeing. Then we're going to touch on the role of leaders, and what leaders can do to help their teams and be, you know, have a higher level of well being, and what they can do to create teams that foster better sort of behaviors and well being. Then we'll touch a little bit on what well being means for organizations. And then we've got a bit of a curve ball, which is, you know, what's the role of well being in countries and societies, to some extent, you know, how do we relate to well being about the national level? And then we'll have a list of a week for you. So we're going to do this fairly quickly. Spoiler alert, spoilers. This is part of our favorite subject people, so watch out for rants. That's right, I said we're going to do it fairly quickly because I'm telling myself to do we will.

Okay. So for individuals, fairly quickly, it's clear that individuals benefit from investing in their own well being, right? We said well being links to happiness. It's all kind of similar, so it makes sense to try and do things that help you stay happy. And of course, it's not easy, but it's an important thing to do. So what we've got here is a list of things that can contribute to an individual's well being, and they're not all easy things to do, and they're not all things people want to hear, but nonetheless, they're all things that really do help create greater levels of well being. So in no particular order, we're going to start with a healthy diet. Nobody really wants to hear that one day you want to be able to eat anything you want and feel great. But in reality, diet plays through your well being. We are not going to get through this list very quickly at this rate, but just want to say, shout out, without question. In the last four years, my changes in my diet have been the single biggest factor and contributor to my improved well being without question. So it's not fun. It is a bit. It's hard, but finding the right diet for you, and I don't mean diet isn't losing weight. I mean, the right constituents works to make you feel on top of your game. Yeah, huge. It's really, really big. Yeah. Number two is maybe not that popular, either, but this is the biggest thing for me, regular exercise. I mean, I turned exercise into a habit, and it's just the most powerful thing, it's fundamentally changed my life, and it creates a much greater sense of well being. And it doesn't have to be about aerobic exercise, no. So I am a truly dreadful, dreadful I can't turn into a habit. I love my exercise, but I can't. But the one thing I would say to people is, you know, I don't do that, but I do walk up a hill with a dog three times a week, briskly, and as the Germans would say, schwitz, work up a bit of a sweat. Yeah. That's enough. It is. It's about engaging your body physically, yeah. So that's a powerful one for number two and then others on the list, getting enough sleep. Very powerful. You know, sleep is a hugely important thing. People don't always appreciate how important it is, so work out how much sleep you need. It might be more than you think you need, and try and get that amount of sleep taking time to relax. It's easy to keep working when you've got the momentum and the energy, but it doesn't always help your well being, whereas actually taking time to stop and relax gives your body a chance to catch up, gives your mind a chance to catch up. So that's good

kind of contrary to that. But equally important is finding activities that help you recharge, so non work related things, things that you do that help you feel good about the world and help you recharge and stimulate you. That could be going to Museum, it could be reading your book, it could be seeing friends, whatever those energy.

Energy providing activities are make sure you get a balance of them, build a support network, speak to people, get help. That's pretty important.

One that we think is important, that we'll touch on again a bit later, is around contributing to others. So helping other people actually increases your own well being. And then the last one, I think, is interesting, and it's around caring for yourself and your environment, but things like, you know, personal grooming, looking after your presentation, wearing clothes that you're proud of, cleaning your house, living in a clean space, all those things actually contribute to well being. So that's a list of a list of things that you can, you know, focus on as an individual. The next step on this journey is to look at leaders. Now I'm really passionate in the view that leaders have an obligation to help their individuals their teams have a good sense of well being. So what we've got here is just a list of things that leaders can do and should do to help create teams that provide good levels of well being for their individuals. So first one is to try and create. You know, this is all stuff that where possible, right? It's best endeavors. We know it's not easy, but these are things that do help, yeah? And if you it's not about doing all 16 of them, it's about, you know, what, hear what they are, and figure out which ones you might be able to do, because sometimes one or two will be enough to change everybody. Yeah? And there might be some that are more important. You might be able to say, Oh, well, that's clear, but that's one that we could do better. And also just a warning, don't make everyone do all of them. Everyone do all of them. No, it's about people finding the right thing for them. This is not about you creating a boot camp fee. Yeah, everyone. Well, being camp, really bad one.

Okay, so the list that we've come up with this as follows, So in no particular order, create a good physical working environment. So that helps things like light and space and cleanliness. They all contribute look after your team's physical well being. So maybe, you know, buying fruit instead of chocolates, or making sure they've got space I've got desk adjustments, all that kind of stuff, supporting a good work life balance as much as possible. I remember Daimler shuts off people's emails when they're out of the office. So, you know, they don't get distracted.

So, you know, some interesting stuff there. Invest in time as a leader to try and create a cohesive, connective and supportive team. So help people get to know each other and be supportive as a leader, also role model, good, well being yourself. So, you know, embody the things that we talk about, but also as a next point, you know, make sure that you value that well being and speak to your teams about it and demonstrate it. And then, you know, actually call out what's important understand physical and mental signs of stress, both in yourself and your team, that'll help you identify when well being might be sleeping. Really important one set reasonable expectations for your team. We know that you need to stretch delivery, and everyone wants to do more with less, but there's something around getting the balance right of what a reasonable expectation is. Another really important one is around creating meaningful work for your teams, so people's well being is partly added to by doing things that they feel are worthwhile. So if, as a leader, you can make sure that the things that you generate as work are actually worthwhile, that's a powerful thing, also stimulating and challenging your teams. So that piece around stretching them and keeping them engaged and helping them get the progress contributes to their well being, as you're doing that thanking women for some actually meaning it's important

also occasionally you need to get out of your team's way to give them the space to succeed, to get that sense of well being, role modeling honest and trusting relationships. So those trusting relationships are often open and can be fairly supportive. So it's important to create those so that they can have support networks that are good. Invest in developing your individuals. So you know that well being supported by, you know the growth that comes through development. So that's a helpful, helpful thing you can do, providing the support directly when people need it's also really important. And lastly on this list is celebrating your team successes, and those of the individuals in your team when stuff goes well as well. And I think if you know, leaders pick up a handful of those things about increased well being of their teams, I think so. I think they're really important. I think I think they're

there's lots to choose from. Yeah, there's nothing. I cannot believe there's not a leader that could sit in front of us and say they can't do any one of those things a bit more. Yeah, pick one. Yeah. Just makes a little change, because it's that thing of with this stuff, I always feel it's a bit incremental. Yeah, it's not about a well being program, and don't get me wrong, that's a great thing, but it's not about designing a program or designing a year's worth of interventions. It's about, how do you change the culture in your organization a little bit to value these things a little bit. It's changing for day to day, isn't it? It's a little effect on everyone's days. Organizations. Is the next thing we're going to talk about, and again, fairly briefly, when we talked about authentic leadership a little while ago, we shared a matrix that looked at, you know, engagement versus well being. And I just put that in our slides again for today, and it's just a call out. But I.

Well, you know, it's well being really contributes to how well an organization is doing, so even if you've got a highly engaged workforce,

but well being is low. What you'll find is that you have a population of employees that are in often sort of chronic stress levels of being, and they tend to be unhappy, and they might deliver for reorganization, but they ultimately damage themselves. So keel over, right? Yeah, exactly. Suddenly you're celebrating, and they're off for two weeks after, yeah, yeah. Or they're not. They're even worse, they're dragging themselves in and looking pretty ropey, yeah, and ultimately they'll end up somewhere else. They'll end up, you know, long term sacred, they'll end up going to another organization. So that's really what comes out of that well being and engagement matrix. And I think with that in my mind, over the last, you know, decade or so, there's been a recognition that well being is really important, almost strategically for organizations. You know, you want your your employees to have a good level of well being, and what you believe that that'll contribute to your overall levels of productivity as a team.

So, you know, high levels of well being tend to translate into higher levels of performance, and they're also fairly contagious, right? You know? I mean, if you've got a good sense of well being within the team, and it helps others be more effective at all sort of positivity and well being spread between teams, and that makes organizations more attractive, so you can attract

higher levels of talent to join the team. And one of the things I thought was interesting in this is the piece of examples of companies trying four day working weeks and things like that. And I think for me, a lot of that fits in with well being, I do. And I'll tell you what I think some of the most powerful things I've seen around well being have been not necessarily four day weeks or short days or whatever, yeah, but organizations that understand what flexible working actually means genuinely, so genuinely someone walking into work stressed out of her head because one of their parents is really unwell in the personal care and saying what you'd like to work from home two days a Week, fine, yeah, how long for? Don't know, fine. Work around this. You are a part of this organization, and you have other responsibilities, and it's our job to figure out how we can make those work with you. Yeah, and if you're saying you're fed to work a few extra hours, but in return you would like a load of time to get this project done at home. Fine, yeah. Just, just say yes and make it work. Yeah? Because I think quite often, what you see is policy gatekeepers saying, No, we can't do it for them, because we then we'll do it for everyone. Computer says, No, best the best leaders say, I will stand by this decision, and I'm quite happy to stand in front of nine and a half 1000 people on my board saying, Yeah, I let them work from home. Yeah, no, I know it's against the policy, and I don't care, yeah, because those are the people that we respect, and those are people we remember, yeah, and those are the people who get good results for their individuals that are working for them. You follow, yeah? So they are true leaders, because if they leave, you follow them, and not because they need, like, easy you follow them because they stuck their neck out for you, and you feel like you owe them something in a good way, yeah?

So sorry round number one, yeah, that's good. So at an organizational level, well being is helpful for individuals and the organization. And then our first sort of curve ball that I think we've really thrown into anything that we've done at this level is around the role of well being in sort of countries, and this, this is kind of out of the usual sphere of what we do in our world of work, but it's kind of relevant, and we just wanted to touch on it. And I guess we just want to reflect a little bit on what role of wellbeing is almost at a national policy level. So if we think about where we are now, a lot of countries really track, sort of international progress through a range of things, but GDP is one of the biggest ones. So your gross domestic product, your gross national product, effectively the value of a good that you produce and that that's a huge decision making contributor for policy, right? So what can we do that increases the perception of people, countries, state, place in the world? Yeah, right country, yeah. And we're all hearing it, those viewing Britain, in fact, do you know what you all over the world right now? You're all hearing about bricks Britain is the sixth biggest economy, or the seventh because of Brexit, and suddenly it's a quick topic, yeah, and, and I think it's, it's really interesting, because what this, I find it astonishing, really, if I'm honest,

and yet not astonishing at all. Yeah, that we are literally when the term x biggest economy gets placed, it is being used as a placeholder for most successful. And the idea that financial success is the only measure of success, I cannot believe we're in 20 going into 2019 and that is still a conversation. That's the core measure. So it's such a reductive thing, I am absolutely convinced that there is not a person alive that would argue financial so even the people who are motivated by money, yeah, when you talk to them, it's not the money, it's what the what it buys them. It buys them the power or the security

resources to do what they want to do, right? Yeah. Or it's evidence of winning at a game, or it's pretty Yeah, or it's proof of a measure of winning. And I just, I cannot believe we're still blows my apps.

In mind that we sit there and we look at our population and we say, okay, so we have all these amazing ways to measure their mental well being, their physical well being, their financial well being, all of these different elements. We can measure all of this. But because there's a because of the world, that's really not what we're saying. What we're really saying deep down, money matters. That's how we're actually going to Yeah. We don't care if you're happy, yeah. But it feels like that's changing a little bit optimism. I think I will. I think it's divergent. So I think in some areas, that's the same, but I think there's my problem is I'm so cynical that I really think the only reason that it's changing is because the countries that it's changing in the countries that are slipping down the table. Maybe, yeah. So, David, those of you who don't know, one of the reasons, I suspect, that we found that data in Office of National Statistics, and that grading is because back in 2010 David Cameron, the then Prime Minister of the UK, started talking about the change of measures. And My bet is he started talking about it because over the next 3040, years, the predictor would be that the world order's going to change, which is understandable for changing populations, changing productivity, all of stuff. I wish I didn't believe that, but I do, and I don't, I don't, honestly, sense in this country that we're really saying right now in the UK, and I don't really see it from my colleagues in America as well, that we are really saying that how we measure the success of our country is the well being of our people. Yeah, and I think you're right that certainly at a national discussion level that I don't, I don't think that's happening, but I think in certain areas, pardon me, in certain areas, and in sort of subcultures, that that is happening, yeah, but I'll tell you what, and I'll tell you why I don't so on James list, and I'd strongly urge you to go and check out the slides, because there's some really interesting stuff all the way through. But one of the things he's got is the UN Sustainable Development Goals include good health and well being right?

They should just be our goals, right? I mean, that's what we're all working towards, isn't it, where everyone signed up to the UN Sustainable No, but that's what individual Yeah, as people, that's what we're all just striving for, isn't it? We're all just striving for a slightly nicer life than we've got, yeah, or a slightly happier life,

stable, yeah, be content. You love that one. Yeah. James has literally got the most content itself, satisfied to look in his face. Just got to keep saying it. So, anyway, yeah, so, so clearly, you know, GDP is an interesting talking point,

and you know, perhaps we're using it because it correlates with happiness, but actually there are, if you look at some research, there are a lot of other factors that correlate more with happiness, some of the big ones around mental health.

So, yeah. So, so I guess the question really is, you know, whatever policy decisions you write for your country,

is there enough being done to think about well being and happiness as a measure for success? If you turned around and you said to all of the children in any given country, the goal, yeah, what's is to be happy, secure, contented, yeah, off you go. That would completely change a country's approach to education, to behaviors, to family, family building, all of that sort of stuff. So if you want to look a little bit more at some alternatives, probably the best one to call out is the kingdom of a Bhutan that kind of scrapped GDP and now goes for something called gross national happiness. And they set policies around gross national happiness. And they're a funny little kingdom in the mountains, right? But, you know, why? Not worth considering? Anyway, I delighted

to be referred to a majestic mountain top paradise. How about that? I don't know. I don't know what it's like, but I love them. I'm gonna go and google it. Yeah, check that out. So it's interesting. Anyway, so that was a little side step in relation to well being and what it means at a sort of a sovereign state level. And we'd be really interested to hear your thoughts on that one. So on Twitter or whatever. Yeah, if you, if you think actually GDP is a great measure, tell me. Tell us. I'm absolutely convinced it's not. I did economics at uni. I'm not, I'm not a brilliant economist, but I know enough to know it's a rubbish measure. Yeah, it's

come get me. But also, interestingly, if you think there are other things we should be looking at beyond well being, I'd be really interested, because I think it's a genuinely interesting, yeah, we look at what what we are, so goal setting it as a state. All

right, so, so that's kind of our research Roundup. So we've done a few things free there. We've delved a little bit into wellbeing. We've shared some of the ONS points that are sort of pillars on which wellbeing is built. We've talked about some things that individuals can do to improve their wellbeing. We've done a little bit of reflection on things leaders can do to increase their wellbeing, about teams. We've reflected a little bit on how wellbeing helps organizations succeed, and we had a little bit of a look there at wellbeing. Yeah, well, being rant, we handed the microphone to Jane for a minute there to get some stuff off her chest around GDP, and maybe we should do a bit more of that. So, so, yeah, so that's sort of a round up there. I think we are heading over to.

List of the week. I think what we will do about GDP is maybe you should pretend you're recording and then just leave me with a microphone, and then I can run and get it off my chest. So list of the week is something called Five waste well being, and it was originally done by the NEF, the New Economics Foundation, as part of a piece of work that ultimately has ended up as something mind the mental health charity use quite heavily. They're a large UK or, yes, they're a large English network of smaller organizations, very federal, federal. And they are, yeah, exactly. And they do really brilliant work. So the most recent thing in the UK that you might have seen is, those of you not in the UK will know we love our soccer. So they've done a pair up with the EFL, which is the equivalent of one division below the Premier League. And every single player in the entire EFL have got mind logo on. And they're getting footballers talking about the mental health, which in this country is, for those of you in American Australia who put in the body rules or American football, it's about taking a group of people who really don't talk about this stuff very much and really bring it to the front. So they're doing great work. Anyway, the NEF came up with this list. It's been out a long time. I've been using it for five years, and it's, I love it. Think it's really solid. So list of the week, five core contributors, five, five ways well, being connect so feeling close and valued by other people is hugely important,

you know what? And this is as simple as maybe sending an email someone you haven't reached out to in a while. Yeah, maybe talking to them and calling them instead of emailing. If you don't email them regularly, maybe it's about speaking to someone new. So for me, one of the classic things is, I work from home. I've really struggled with it. Yeah, there's a little lady who lives across I see her putting her rubbish out, yeah, and being a Londoner, I can speak to her for months. And since I've, since I've got, I've got a dog, and since I've got a dog, I've used it as an excuse to talk to her. That's great, right? Not for her, no, she seems fine. She's busy social life. She's off with lattes every Monday. But I need someone to talk to. And she's, you know, she's nice enough, yeah. But you see, you see people you know, chatting to shopkeepers and all that stuff, just because human contact, human contact drivers, I love tax drivers. Anyway, connect, talk to people, right? Yeah. Second one is Be active. So physical activity is great for both physical and mental well being. And in this, in this particular scenario, it doesn't have to be big aerobic activity, you know, being active can be about doing things. Gardening is an absolute winner, right? If you want something low, push on drugs, bad, on the knees, but otherwise, really, really good. And even, um, you know, the radio had some stuff about this while ago, and I said, you know, I think the phrase was vigorous vacuuming, right? I mean, that'll do it. Do you know, like, do you remember the shake and vac video? No,

okay. So for those of you bought it like pre 1980 there was a video, there was a there was an ad right for a product called shaken back. And shaken back was you, you ship it on the carpet and then you vacuum. Okay? It was shaken back. Did the freshness and dancing around her living okay with her vacuum. I Google it. It's on, I guarantee it's, yeah, okay, okay. So firstly, the jingle is brilliant. Are we gonna get an army of people doing we're shaking back down. And also, you know, I can just, I can wholeheartedly vouch for being active. And the best thing to do if you work in a big office or on a few floors and you need to go speak to someone, just get up and go speak to them. And I know people don't always want to be interrupted, and blah, blah, blah, and you have to read the signs, but nine times out 10, nothing. Else. It's got you moving, yeah? Because we can get very sedentary and we can get very stuck, yeah? Well, they actually recommend that sitting, yeah, like is really bad for your health. So terrible. Yeah, I will say I worked for an organization that gave us giant medicine balls instead of chairs. We wanted them, and I have never had a stronger core. It was unbelievable. Was

unbelievable. Yeah, okay, so be active. Take notice. So be aware. Be present. Be in the moment. And this has all been shown to improve well being. So suggestions here, things like get get plants, have a clear the Oh, clear the clutter. Day, I absolutely I cannot tell you how good they are. I have a cupboard in my house, right? Yeah, you shove everything in it. You don't haven't got the guts to throw away. You shut it. Yeah, anything that doesn't get touched for a year then yeah. But also, so for me taking notice, one of the things I really do is when I get off the bus, I get off the bus, step, stop early to the station, put my headphones in, put my favorite music, and look around me, yeah, and I just love it. It gives me a real sense. It's immersive. And I'm in a, I imagine myself in a pop video. That's okay. I am a girl in the iTunes ad. Yeah, dancing. I'm not dancing because that would be embarrassing. I'm dancing listening to very cool music. Yeah, I'm probably not. I'm probably not. I'm probably listening to something terrible, but I've got a smile on my face. If you, if you do something that makes you feel like you're smiling, you're probably getting tape notes, right? Yeah, keep learning, learning to spend with blue self esteem and well being absolutely find something new. Do suku, if you like stuko. Doo him if you like crossroads. Do them. Read the news. Don't read it on your phone. Buy.

Paper. Yeah, buy paper and look at the pictures. Set up a book club. There is no excuse not to have a book club. Now we've got Facebook and Twitter and all of that. Yeah, you can find there's online Twitter book clubs. There's Twitter volunteer managers book clubs. I mean, there's literally everything. Yeah, and then this last one's really, really important for me and very close to my heart, which is give. So giving and contributing towards others can help greatly improve well being. And it doesn't have to be money. Money is great. And if you can help charity, and that's all you've got to offer, do it and do it with a with a with an honest heart and with thought. So pick the organization you really want to help and something you care about absolutely because it will, it will enrich you. But you know, you don't have to just do that. There's, there's amazing things you can do online, offline, real life, to connect with people. One of my absolute favorites, there's a charity in London that asks people to commit their car to one day, one day a month. It's not even one day a month, like, it's like one day a quarter, okay? And it's basically to be a pet taxi for old people if they need to take the dogs to vets and stuff. Lovely. How simple is that? And they only do it in like a three mile radius, so it's literally, you knit down the road, you pick up Doris and a dog, you take it to the vets, you wait, you take it back. Yeah, if you got a really nice car, you might not want I think there are some really there's some really cool stuff around very limited amount of time. Good gym, yeah, incredibly brilliant charity. Basically, go for a run. Yeah, you run a couple of K you do a good deed. So you might clear up a playground, you might paint a degree, and then you run back. Great. How cool is that three right? If you're present while you're doing the five ways well being,

other charities are available. So just a reminder, connect, be active, take notice, keep learning, and give five proven ways to improve your well being. Yeah, it's a great list. It really is a great list, right? Yeah, good job. Nef, yeah. Well, foundation, they do great stuff, actually, yeah. Stuff, really good. Cool. All right. Well, do you want to run straight on then and maybe let us know a tale from a keyboard. Is there any sort of specific one, really quick one for me. You talked about ways leaders can do things on a little rant about how one of the most powerful things you can do is be flexible. I've worked with

three or three or four leaders, or pretty much all of whom have been really passionate about work and well being. And one in particular was incredibly passionate about work, life balance, and who completely changed the way I saw the world. And what I love about the work he does is that he's iterative about it. Okay, every quarter something new is happening in the organization, and the idea is figuring out what and it's a small organization, right? Like 100 people, but it's remote, and so one of the things they've recently done is they've said to all of the remote workers, if you have just had enough of being at home,

we'll pay for your coffees to be out and work from coffee shop in your local area for a day. Yeah, just, you know, we

it's just a thing of saying, you know, we see that is important, absolutely appropriate. And actually, I don't even think it's about the coffee and the money. I think it's about saying we don't think you should be at home all week. Yes, yeah, if it was not, and that's normal, yeah. So there are things like that. We have walking they have walking meeting. So you swap them, but yeah, they have walking meetings. They when they have a leadership week, two days, yeah, he absolutely always finishes at 530 and he's really clear about it. There isn't, we don't want follow up meetings. Yeah, you have two hours. He deliberately books hotels with gyms, yeah, so that everyone can make sure that they if they wanted. I

just, I think stuff like, that's brilliant. And I think, it's, it's it's rare you see someone who believes stuff and then who lives it in so many ways. So I just want to say that you can, and it's not a rich organization, yeah, and it doesn't cost them a huge I love the small scale of what's there and the sort of creativity of ideas that you've talked about. For me that's and he does loads of practical stuff that everyone does the mental health days. But what I like is that he's always thinking, he'll, he'll go along, and he'll listen to a podcast about something, and then he'll be like, so I read today that this makes a massive difference, so maybe we should just do that. Yeah, and there's not big policy decisions. It's just, let's try. It's what happened. Yeah, and what we were talking about earlier, when we talked about the things leaders could do, we touched on for fact that it's just finding something that works and creating that, that sort of culture and space, yeah, absolutely, that's exactly what it is. And I'll tell you the other thing that you talked about earlier, which absolutely rings true, is he is incredibly open about how he's feeling, yeah? So when he starts his monthly updates, yeah, he will at some point in the first couple of paragraphs say, I'm feeling really positive, or I've really, you know, it's been a challenging week, especially, all of us, but I've really felt it, yeah, and you may have to Yeah. And I think, I think that open language really humanizing all of this stuff, right? Hugely. If he's, if he's feeling it, then it's okay for me to feel it, yeah, it's a bit of a sort of side rant on that. I think it's absolutely right that it's okay to feel like this. Do we.

But do we actually say that when people come into the workforce at the beginning? I don't think we do enough. It's really hard. It's really hard. And so I guess my tell from a keyboard is similar to where that conversation is going, which is, I've had a lot of people in my teams off from stress related absence, and that sounds like maybe I'm the cause of it. I really don't think I am. I've inherited teams where

James, I really don't think correlation and all of that stuff anyway. I've picked up teams where I've had significant numbers of people off through stress related absence. And

I guess it's just really hard, and it's not worth it. And I try and support that and have the right conversations. Your point around grief is in, you know, take the time when you need it, and I'm there to support you and all that kind of stuff. Those types of conversations. I try and have similar types of conversations when I am managing people who are off on stress related absence for a long time, but it's difficult, and the organizations don't always make it easy, and a lot of procedures and processes kick in around mental health and around areas of well being, but make it hard, and that, in my view, make it harder for people to recover. So, for example, I know that things like occupational health assessments are necessary, yeah, but there are times when, in my view, it's inconsiderate to do that. So if somebody's gone through something difficult and they're not in a good place to initially, you know, send people out to assess their well being, their mental health or their occupational health right away. Doesn't always feel like it's in there people. It's process over people. It's not in my best interest, and I've gotten into disputes of organizations about trying to do that stuff before. Sorry. The reason I'm traveling people is not because it's funny, but because it's funny, but because it doesn't surprise me that you probably won't surprise you either. James and I point to a number of Disney Yeah, yeah. So I ended up not doing it, and I didn't do it. I wouldn't, I wouldn't initiate and authorize an occupational health assessment automatically, because I didn't think it was the right thing to do, and I didn't get into lots of trouble. But it was made very clear to me that I was letting myself down and putting myself at risk in that organization, which is just

beyond and beyond wrong? Yeah, you know, the greatest thing we talk about leadership a lot, and I still maintain the greatest thing that you can do is stick your neck out for your team. I think so. I still believe, if you genuinely believe it's the right thing to do, yeah, it's the greatest gift. And the thing they will love you for the most is when they see you. Yeah, have no concern for yourself or little concern for yourself, right? And sticking genuinely believe you are protecting them, yeah? And that's your job, right? Leadership is not about driving them over or off a clear for rescuing them from a difficult situation. It's having their back, yeah? And it's having their back when they don't have the power and authority to produce. That's right, give them space to succeed. Um, so, so that's it. And, yeah, awful, yeah, I'm really sorry that that happened to you. It's hard, yeah, and it's part of reason I left my last organization. It's absolutely the reason I would be terrible in corporate situations, it's not nice anyway. So that's a tale from a keyboard. I guess we're getting towards the end. We've got a few excited bits in this podcast. It's great to have some of it so emotive, right? And, sorry, no, it's really good. It's really good. Any final thoughts from you?

Top Tips? Yes, actually, and it's not the one I was going to so one of the things that was incredibly powerful for me was when I started to

write down how, what my world, state of well being was okay, so how is the conversation? So it start, basically, it's such a geeky thing. Yeah, it started one New Year's Eve where I decided to bin off a big night out, yeah, and do

boring. I downloaded all of my financial transactions. I downloaded all my financial transactions for a year, and I discovered that I spent 3000 pounds in Starbucks, COVID, Niro, Costa, etc. And was livid. I was livid, of course. Anyway, it got me onto it. I really like numerically. I like setting targets

numerically. Okay, well, no, it's more that I'm just better if I've got, like, a scale, okay, so if I can say I'm at five and I want to get to seven, that helps me. So I did it for my finance. And then I was like, oh, what else? What else? I googled, like 10 aspects of life and goals.

And so what happened was I ended up and I realized, by doing this exercise museum on my own, I probably should have noticed that actually, although there were certain things in my life that were going incredibly well, so I was incredibly satisfied with the level and the complexity of my work and stuff. I was really struggling with my physical and mental health, yeah. Well, being certainly, I don't think I was unhealthy. It definitely wasn't where I wanted to be because my scores were like four, yeah, right. And everything else was like eight, relationships like two, yeah. But actually, generally, everything else was really high, and it.

Made me, but I couldn't put my finger on why, yeah, like, I couldn't say to you that was massively overweight, or I couldn't say to you that I wasn't fit. I just didn't feel healthy myself, physically or mentally. And so I started to keep a diary of it, yeah, and by keeping a diary, I started to understand what I meant to myself about when I was there. And it was astonishing. It was astonishing how fast it moved. Because I just was like, This is ridiculous. I need spots. And, you know what, like, all things in life. I was like, throw money at the problem. Yeah, right. So I started glasses classes, and within three months, I was like, Wow, I feel great. Yeah, yeah. So reflection. So my top tip is, you know, if you're not quite sure, but you also don't quite believe it all, write it down and just see how you feel. I'm checking check in with yourself, I guess the message, yeah, that's great. I guess I've got one top tip. I guess for me, the top tip is go and do some exercise.

That's it. Just, you know, end the conversation. Just do it. And putting your shoes on is the hardest part of that. For most people, you know, just commit to doing it. Put your shoes on. We live in Scotland, right? It's dark at four o'clock and four

Well, today, dark. Today, it was getting dark at half past two. Today, we've got a Christmas tree up in the house, and you could see it reflecting in the windows. It could be midnight. Yeah, it's pitch black. Anyway. So what that means is, you just need to buy a head torch and some really thick, heavy running clothes and go running with a head torch. I was thinking, the thing I was gonna say is, you know what that means? That means an opportunity to buy kit,

exactly, to buy gadgets, all the gear. And no idea, right? But a lot of the things that stop us from exercising are mental things. And, of course, first, you know safety and whatever, and things like that. And if you're there is a worldwide organization called parkrun. Yeah. Park run is an organization that every Saturday morning at nine o'clock sets up in parks across the world. And Google one, and you'll see if you can find one. And they have communities coming together to walk or run 5k Yeah, and yeah, they have smaller ones for kids as well, and they do Junior Park on Sundays in the UK and all sorts. But

Google it, because, trust me, if, if you can walk for 30 minutes slowly, you can do a park, yeah, right, there will be someone there who will walk with you, yeah? And you don't. You shouldn't. I mean, I'd spend ages going, Oh, I can't do it because I'm not fast enough go over it. Just go and, you know what, go and hide in the bushes and watch, yeah. And if you really can't run, go volunteer for them. Yeah, go volunteer for them, because they always need help. All you have to do is stand there and cheer, literally.

Trust me, you feel that. Yeah, cool. All right. So, yeah, getting exercise is mine. Just find a way to do it. Yeah? Good one. I like it's helpful. Okay, so that is us getting to the end of well being I guess it's just time for us to say, slide it up on the website, www dot the WoW podcast.org, and you can check us out on Twitter.

And our Twitter handle is as always, at the WoW podcast. Don't forget, as I mentioned earlier, tell us what you think would be a better measure than GDP. Want to know? Yeah, measures excessive countries, yeah, just for those of you that Call of Duty performance is not a measure of national and of course, you can let us know anything else about well being that's on your mind as

well, top tips would be good, really, anything that you think would help other people have a greater sense of well being, yeah. Can we just do one last shout out